If a dog says "No"......

willowchow

because she's being bratty

Let me sound like another member and say that "bratty" is a description of human behavior. There are some independent breeds who's unspoken job is to sense danger and override an order. The Siberian Husky had to be smart enough to stop the team if he sensed danger ahead that the musher couldn't sense. At - 70 F, falling into water isn't just inconvenient, it's fatal. I think the "bratty" behavior is because she is not motivated, for whatever reason, to do it. Which leads me to my next question.

willowchow

And, really you guys aren't giving your dogs a choice to do something or not either.  They want the treat or the reward, not to do the actual command or whatever it is.

I don't ask this just because I clicker train or treat train. But what is the reward for doing the command? Why should the dog do what you say or ask? Because the dog really likes doing what you say just for the sake of doing what you say?

A couple of years ago, when I would need Shadow to go outside, there were times he didn't want to go. Regular treats wouldn't do it. So, I would get my arms under his chest and "guide" him out. Later, I found that a chunk of steak or pork chop was reason enough. Nowadays, plenty is the time where no "bribery" is needed. Especially when DW has to go to work and I am already at work. She walks outside with his food bowl, which he won't hardly touch unless I am there, and he goes outside. He knows the drill, so to speak. So, saying "out" with my wonderful, melodious voice wasn't reward enough. Going out at that exact time wasn't reward enough. But steak with cowboy rub, now you're talking. He gets what he wants, I get what I want.

willowchow

Also--Isn't it confusing for the dogs to have to do somethings like grooming and have a choice to do things other times

That reminds of when a parent has to take a child to get a haircut or see the doctor. The child may not choose to do those things but the parent can certainly make it more fun and rewarding. Sorry to anthropromorphize.

FourIsCompany

willowchow

I don't "ask" her to do much of anything.  Well, maybe if you want to put it nicely but really I'm "telling" her to do stuff. 

 

I'm not sure this is what the OP had in mind in this thread.  

You give me way too much credit--I actually had no particular direction for the thread.   I'm actually not entirely sure what I think about the statement.  Out of the two dogs Jack is much more likely to say "no."  However, as time has gone on, I think it is how I'M asking the question that is the issue.

Honestly, while I try to make it as easy as possible to say "yes," I do not allow my dogs to just ignore an actual command.  I feel that it is only fair to be consistent with them--if I ask them to sit, that is what I want.  Even if I we have to try a couple of times, I do want the command followed.  It seems like once they realize it is an option they will pick and choose when to obey this will only confuse them to the point where it could be dangerous.

Honestly, while I try to make it as easy as possible to say "yes," I do not allow my dogs to just ignore an actual command.  I feel that it is only fair to be consistent with them--if I ask them to sit, that is what I want.  Even if I we have to try a couple of times, I do want the command followed.  It seems like once they realize it is an option they will pick and choose when to obey this will only confuse them to the point where it could be dangerous.

I was thinking along the same lines.  My first thought was..  when I was training them I would make sure a command was followed thru.  But now that they are trained they don't really ever say NO, they might hesitate at times but they do follow my commands.  Generally, come, att att, sit, down, drop it and stay cover it all.  The difference for me is that "get down" for instance, is not a request it is a command.   If theyr'e on the couch and I don't care they get to stay, if someone wants to sit down I tell them to get down.  If River decides to pick up one of my sneakers and start throwing around the room and up in the air I laugh for a few minute until I think he going to rip it or put a hole in it, then I tell him to leave it (command) and I give him one of his toys to throw around.  He dosen't care I take it becasue then he gets to have one of his toys and me play with him too!

sillysally

Honestly, while I try to make it as easy as possible to say "yes," I do not allow my dogs to just ignore an actual command. 

I don't either. But since the question posed was "If your dog says no, you are either asking the question wrong, or asking the wrong question." it sounds like I'm asking the dog something, not necessarily giving a command. To me, there's a difference between asking a dog to come and cuddle with me in the evening and giving the command to wait. In the first, I'm asking and he has a choice. In the latter, one way or another I expect him to comply.

That's how I interpreted the phrase.  

ron2

Let me sound like another member and say that "bratty" is a description of human behavior. There are some independent breeds who's unspoken job is to sense danger and override an order. The Siberian Husky had to be smart enough to stop the team if he sensed danger ahead that the musher couldn't sense. At - 70 F, falling into water isn't just inconvenient, it's fatal. I think the "bratty" behavior is because she is not motivated, for whatever reason, to do it. Which leads me to my next question.

Ron, you might have watched enough "8 Below" or, some of the same movies.....are you kidding?

Nanook fell into a river that borders our property, because he was nosy...Husky/Chow mix......and he fell in.....now, you really want to talk Huskies on a trail that don't step into slush?

AAAND.........haven't you been discounting all the wolf methods based on the fact that dogs have evolved?

You really confuse me.......

willowchow

Ugh, you guys. . .sometimes these types of threads are so frustrating.

There is a very obvious difference between her not wanting to do something because she's being bratty and not wanting to do something because she's perceiving some sort of danger.  I would definately recognize the difference immediately and NOT have an issue if she was hesitating because she sensed a problem. 

This is cute because the resolve in both cases will be known with time.  You just have to know your dog.  If I ask or I let the dogs know it is time to come inside the house and one hesitates because he want to try and catch one more sparrow, that is ok with me, I will wait and the dog will comply to the original signal.  If the dog hesitates because there is an object in front of the back door and for this particular dog that means slipping and falling, I will see this, correct the path, and then the dog will comply with the original request.  I don't know, I guess its all in what you expect from the dog and how fast you want compliance.

sillysally

Do you think that this applies to dogs?  If so, to what extent?  If not, why?

When you have an independent dog, yes, this question applies to dogs.  

When you want to train a dog to do something that goes against his/her instincts-yes.  Or you could take your chances and practice other methods that may create more problems than they solve.

No, I'm not talking about "8 Below."

And that's not to say that a lead dog always does rightly. Some are quite independent and I remember reading the account of one musher in a race who's dogs decided to leave the trail and chase a rabbit and all he could do was hold on. How's that for independent?