CT a food obsessed dog?

spiritdogs

Picture a classroom full of elementary school students all raising their hands excitedly because they know the answer to the question their beloved teacher has asked.  Why would you think that dogs can't experience the joy of learning,

This statement clearly reflects my views and my new experiences with using affection as a reward.  Granted, it takes work to crossover and with all the dogs here (my home), I see no possibility of an exception.  What joy for the dog and what a joy for me.

spiritdogs

Why would you think that dogs can't experience the joy of learning, even if it's just for the sake of getting a toy or a treat? 

Shadow can be excited but he is also focused. I don't see it as desperate or neurotic. I guess I just didn't equate his state of mind to that of a manic human. I observe that he can be focused and excited. Other times, focused and calm. But I never managed to see that as a sign of mental or emotional imbalance. I saw it as him willing to learn what I wanted once I learned how to let him know what it was I wanted.

Maybe I just have the perfect dog. Independent, smart, yet biddable. All I had to do was extricate my cranium from my posterior (that was the loud pop you heard a year ago, registering 5.7 on the Richter Scale.)

But now that you mention it, why can't a dog be excited to learn, in his or her own way?

When I do have meat, such as for dinner, Shadow has all of his attention on me. Jade can take swipes at him, charge him, jump off the couch to try and start a chase. It means nothing to him. Does that sound like food obssession? He will do whatever I ask to get some. Other nights, while he is interested by the smell, he may be tired and he will just lay down while we eat. So, the context can vary.

But I also realize that you get what you reinforce.

And it seems that Corvus' challenge is how to stop the default sit when food is present in order to c/t other behaviors. One good suggestion was to not offer food unless the sit was specifically requested. How else can we practice our wicked, despicable deprivation?

Although Corvus, herself, could have a good method by choosing a reward that is valued and not in the same way as the food. I caught the bit where the dog doesn't always stay with her but lives with other dogs in another place. How much of that behavior is a response to living in that other place? Can the context change, as it does for Shadow, and other dogs?

Anne, I never said I was concerned about excitement or injury. My dog is not silly and she's unlikely to hurt herself, even for food. She's currently discovering her limitations as an older dog and has recently decided being carried is not the evil she always thought it was.

What I'm concerned about is sheer obsession getting in the way of learning. What I'm concerned about is my sanity. I have to live with this dog, and if the idea of working with a dog that runs through every behaviour she knows to get food before she bothers to listen to me or try something new or even engage her brain WITH FOOD is not my idea of fun, then chances are it's not going to be fun for her, either. Or at least I'm not going to persist with it if it drives me nuts. I love it when she's excited, but there is such a thing as over-excitement, and a frenzied dog doesn't learn so good. That's what I'm talking about. Not "oh boy, I love to learn and I get food as well" but "FOOOOOOOOD! Must. Get. Food. SNATCH IT!" Like I said, she knows manners, but she honestly has to be reminded every single time. But as long as there's one time that someone has given her food even when she snatched, by accident or otherwise, that's enough to reinforce the behaviour. Do I want to be learning clickering with those kinds of stakes? If I mess up, I'm going to reinforce things I don't want to and it's going to be REALLY hard to undo. She's 12 and there's nothing I want to change, so again, my motivation for trying new things with her isn't that high.

In short, if I don't want to use food, why do I have to use food and is there an alternative that I can fire out fast? Do I even need a reward that is fast? I felt that your post was directed at David and not me. In which case, that was kinda rude and I'd appreciate it if you stayed on topic and addressed the concerns that I have that I started this thread to ask advice for rather than turning my thread into an irrelevant argument.

Corvus, I started out with Sequoyah being a "frenzied" dog, not just over food, but everything LOL.  This is a dog so reactive that if you blow on her, she flies off the couch. She would grab food, she would snark at the other dogs when I dispensed treats.  I had trouble, at first, using a hand signal, because she would want to "herd" my hand.  But, through clicker training I now have a dog that sits nicely with the others and will "wait" her turn, no longer moves about like a jumping bean when I ask for sit/stay.  I think the point you may be missing is that the click ends the behavior, and it's at that point that the dog is being told, "yup, that calm thing was what you got clicked for".  So, the object, even if the dog is crazed at first, is to click only for the dog being quiet and calm.  Personally, if I had to sit for twenty minutes waiting for a coupla seconds of calm, I would do that, then C/T.  Sooner or later, the dog begins to realize that it is being clicked and getting the food ONLY when it exhibits quiet and calm:-)  As soon as this realization is made, you can begin to wait a sec before clicking, then gradually extend the time she must be calm before you click (duration). When you reward this dog, don't hand her the food, toss it on the floor, away from you.  She then has to go get her reward and will come back (maybe in a tizzy again, but the object is to wait her out again until she's calm so you can click.) You first work on the calm, then once she's being calm in all situations when food is present (fluency), you can start to teach "easy" so that you will be able to deliver a food treat by hand.  

One behavior at a time. 

When you are not working on "relax" or whatever cue you plan to use for this calm behavior, you can train her with praise or toys.  If you want to change the food obsessive behavior, you click only when she is NOT obsessing (even if it takes an hour to notice that), and, wonder of wonders, she gets the object of her obsession!  The motivator is what the DOG wants, but the way she gets it from you is now different.  She has to be calm to get the reward.  Anything else she does, you ignore.  If the "anything else" stops working to get her the food, she will stop that and do what does work.  Honest.

As to whether you need a reward that is fast, the answer is yes and no.  It needs to be fast enough that the dog understands it is the reward for the clicked behavior, but it doesn't need to be so fast that the dog is nipping your fingers in expectation.  That's why I suggested tossing the reward on the floor.  It keeps the dog away from your fingers, and sets up the next repetition.  I think that you can safely suspend training other behaviors until you get the dog calm in the presence of food.  That should be job #1, so that you can be comfortable using the method to train other behavior.  If you associate a cue, like "relax" once the dog is being calm for a long period, and not getting grabby with the food, then you can use it to prevent escalation.

spiritdogs

Corvus, I started out with Sequoyah being a "frenzied" dog, not just over food, but everything LOL.  This is a dog so reactive that if you blow on her, she flies off the couch. She would grab food, she would snark at the other dogs when I dispensed treats.  I had trouble, at first, using a hand signal, because she would want to "herd" my hand.  But, through clicker training I now have a dog that sits nicely with the others and will "wait" her turn, no longer moves about like a jumping bean when I ask for sit/stay.  I think the point you may be missing is that the click ends the behavior, and it's at that point that the dog is being told, "yup, that calm thing was what you got clicked for".  So, the object, even if the dog is crazed at first, is to click only for the dog being quiet and calm.  Personally, if I had to sit for twenty minutes waiting for a coupla seconds of calm, I would do that, then C/T.  Sooner or later, the dog begins to realize that it is being clicked and getting the food ONLY when it exhibits quiet and calm:-)  As soon as this realization is made, you can begin to wait a sec before clicking, then gradually extend the time she must be calm before you click (duration). When you reward this dog, don't hand her the food, toss it on the floor, away from you.  She then has to go get her reward and will come back (maybe in a tizzy again, but the object is to wait her out again until she's calm so you can click.) You first work on the calm, then once she's being calm in all situations when food is present (fluency), you can start to teach "easy" so that you will be able to deliver a food treat by hand.  

One behavior at a time. 

When you are not working on "relax" or whatever cue you plan to use for this calm behavior, you can train her with praise or toys.  If you want to change the food obsessive behavior, you click only when she is NOT obsessing (even if it takes an hour to notice that), and, wonder of wonders, she gets the object of her obsession!  The motivator is what the DOG wants, but the way she gets it from you is now different.  She has to be calm to get the reward.  Anything else she does, you ignore.  If the "anything else" stops working to get her the food, she will stop that and do what does work.  Honest.

As to whether you need a reward that is fast, the answer is yes and no.  It needs to be fast enough that the dog understands it is the reward for the clicked behavior, but it doesn't need to be so fast that the dog is nipping your fingers in expectation.  That's why I suggested tossing the reward on the floor.  It keeps the dog away from your fingers, and sets up the next repetition.  I think that you can safely suspend training other behaviors until you get the dog calm in the presence of food.  That should be job #1, so that you can be comfortable using the method to train other behavior.  If you associate a cue, like "relax" once the dog is being calm for a long period, and not getting grabby with the food, then you can use it to prevent escalation.

What she said.  I have a dog right now that salivates at dinner time.  She does the front-feet-dancing-jig if she thinks what you have is for her.  She begins to salivate if you even open a plastic bag.  If you're opening a baggie, she thinks its for her and comes running from where ever she is in the house.  She pees so fast in the morning because she knows first pee is followed by breakfast.  This is Pepper.  She will take your fingers off if you're holding a 4 inch biscuit at the farthest end from her mouth. 

So yes, I understand food obsession.  Pepper came to us as a constant companion if we're eating at the table.  We never feed from the table but she came this way and after 5 years, she got her first reinforcement that it's a good thing last night.  BF dropped a chip and didn't dive for it before she got it. 

So with that said, what I work on with her is exactly what Anne said above.  Calm around food first.  She has to think before she can get the food.  In the morning, for her biscuit/kong/rawhide in  her crate, she must wait patiently and any movement towards the object results in penalties in that I move the object back.  The first few times I tried this, it took several tries before she would ignore it long enough for me to put it down on her mat in the crate.  This morning, it took only 3.  Progress!!!  I don't want her snapping my fingers off, so she must wait for me to put it down before she can have it.

In clicker sessions, I simply wait for her to be calm, then I click and either treat her or throw it like Anne said.  Depends on what I'm doing with her.  I do have to give her the "gentle" so that my fingers remain intact but we have made strides with that as well in that she does not get it (and I endure the pain) unless she is soft  with my fingers.  And in the heat of agility fun, she still gets too excited and will hurt me with her sharp front teeth occasionally.  I have modified how I give her treats to lessen this.

Kota on the other hand, if jazzed up, will run through his entire repertoire of tricks trying to find the right one to earn the treat.  I simply wait this out, ask for the behavior again, then reward when successful.  The run-through-as-many-as-I-can-to-earn-the-treat does not get rewarded.  It might get a laugh, but not the treat.  

If you have to lure a down every time, then you have not faded it well enough and she does not know what the cue means yet.

The protocol I use with a new dog follows. 

Step 1
Kneel on floor with her.
Put food in your hand
place hand on floor with food in fist and palm down
once she goes into a down, click and turn hand over immediately
repeat until she goes into down reliably every time you put your hand on the floor

Then Step 2:
Kneel on floor with her.
Put food in your hand
Say your cue "Down"
pause for 1 second
then place fist on floor as before
once she goes into a down, click and turn hand over immediately

If she's been reliable in the first part, she should immediately go into a down when you place your hand on the floor.  Continue this several times with the cue preceeding the fist on the floor.  This is making the association between the "new" cue (the word "down";) and the "old" cue, fist on floor. 

Then Step 3:
Kneel on floor with her.
Put food in your hand
Say your cue "Down"
pause for 3 seconds
then place fist on floor as before
once she goes into a down, click and turn hand over immediately

Chances are good that once you advance to this stage, she will go down once you say the new cue.  This is not a thing that can be done in one session.  Each step will probably take several sessions each.  But with this progression, the next step would be to extend the length of time between the new cue and the old cue and gradually fade out the old cue completely.  Once the old cue is faded, then you begin to generalize to you sitting on the floor and saying it.  Then squatting on the floor, then kneeling on one knee, then standing.

The first 3 steps will take the longest but the rest should go faster because she will understand better.  If at any time, she does not go into the down, take one step backwards to the previously well known level of understanding.  Do this ONE time then try again.  If she fails more than once, then you've probably gone too far or some other criteria has been changed as well and it was too much.  It's hard and takes some practice to get the timing right.

Thank you, Anne. That's what I was looking for.

I don't really have anything else right now to teach her, but combatting the food obsession is something I would like to do. I'll give it a try like you and mudpuppy have suggested and see what happens. I don't think her food obsession can get any worse. If I run out of patience, I'll try something else, even if it means ditching the clicker (or training in general) for a while.  

Leslie, it's true that she doesn't know down that well. I was practicing with her over Christmas the way you describe, though, and she just never seemed to get it. I swear her brain switches off when the food comes out and she just reacts. I originally taught her down with affection as the reward, and my knuckles tapping the ground as the signal. She'd go down and I'd give her a belly rub. It worked wonderfully and much faster than the food, but I never tried to generalise it and so she's not likely to do it if she isn't really relaxed already. I'm not that fussed about that one as I haven't found a need yet to generalise it, but hey, it's not going to hurt to work on that one. Penny is really a great dog to try out my clickering on. She's already trained and we already have a good understanding of one another, and she's usually pretty motivated to learn. I just have to make a start.

I do wonder, though, if it's worth it to go to all the trouble of getting a food obsessed dog habituated enough to food as rewards to actaully start learning. I mean, that's a question for everyone to answer for themselves, but I've just not really used food with Penny for the last 12 years because I couldn't be bothered waiting out her silliness and I don't feel like I've missed out on much because of that. I have always just accepted the food obsession as part of who Penny is and worked around it. When people say the dog should pick the reward, doesn't that go in both directions? I always figured with Penny that food was too hot in most situations, which is not that different from praise being too cold in other situations. You wouldn't use praise as the reward where it wasn't a strong enough reward, so does it work the same way for a reward that is too strong? Is this a question for another thread?

corvus

I do wonder, though, if it's worth it to go to all the trouble of getting a food obsessed dog habituated enough to food as rewards to actaully start learning

Only you know the answer to that question.

corvus

I've just not really used food with Penny for the last 12 years because I couldn't be bothered waiting out her silliness and I don't feel like I've missed out on much because of that.

And there you have it. 4IC came up with good questions. What is it that I don't want? Sometimes, at least for me, it is better to ask what is it that I do want?

corvus

When people say the dog should pick the reward, doesn't that go in both directions

Not really, imo. Something is either rewarding to the dog or it is not. I could decide that looking at my Minnesota Vikings sweater is the ultimate reward for Shadow but it doesn't mean anything to him. But, as humans, we can control whether or not a dog gets a reward it really, really wants, or a reward that it kind of likes, to an extent. Otherwise, dogs will seek their own reward and they will work for it, even if it means jumping over or digging under a fence to get at whatever it is. I don't think there's anything wrong with say, training with kibble as opposed to drippy meat. If the dog will see the kibble as a reward worthy of doing something but not with the all-out manic "I must have it" of drippy meat, fine. Or a toy. I'm not sure how Penny handles affection as you pointed out that she wasn't always enamored of being picked up. Once again, I believe, the dog defines what affection it prefers and when. That's not a statement meant to tick people off, it's just a fact. Have you noticed, in your observations of wild animals, that they will do whatever they do for their own reward and what we think about it has no affect? Could this statement be generalized for all animals, wild and domesticated? And isn't that colloquially stated as the beast will do what works?

Then again, as you said so honestly in your post, it depends on your true desire to change things and your patience.

corvus, have you ever tried the "look away to get it" game with this dog?  it might really help her frenzied behavior. Start with a toy with this dog so she can grasp the concept before moving on to food. She has to glance at you, away from the object of desire, in order to get the object. It might also help if you begin your clicker-training with a toy instead of food. I often use toys with certain dogs and certain behaviors- click and toss the toy. Play with toy. Then retrieve toy and you're ready for another click. I would also make the dog perform a trick or hold a down-stay (not a sit with this dog, you're trying to de-link sit and getting food in her mind) before being allowed to eat her meals. Self-control around food is a useful skill to teach even if you never move on to teach her anything else. I wouldn't recommend using praise/affection as a "click" reward, most dogs just aren't that into praise.

Thanks mud and ron. I've got plenty to think about. I would like to try something with her, and everyone has given me some good things to do to get around the food fixation. I'm still wary of bring out the food, but it seems there are ways to try it that might help us. She is actually pretty keen on affection, probably more so than play, but I think when she's in affection mode she isn't really in attentive learning mode. Looking back, I think I've taught her most things she knows while out on walks and outings with mostly classical conditioning. I guess in a way I'm fortunate because there's very little in the world more urgent to Penny than food, so at least it's easy to get her attention.

Thanks for all the advice. I'll feel my way along when I finally get my dog back, and we'll just see what works.

One other question: is charging the clicker necessary? I'm not really sure how I'd introduce her to the clicker slow without food if I need to charge the clicker with food first. I'd kinda like to start it slow and just let her figure out the clicker means a reward, but not introduce food right away in an attempt to avoid telling her the clicker means food.

One other question: is charging the clicker necessary? I'm not really sure how I'd introduce her to the clicker slow without food if I need to charge the clicker with food first. I'd kinda like to start it slow and just let her figure out the clicker means a reward, but not introduce food right away in an attempt to avoid telling her the clicker means food.

that will work fine, it will just take longer for her to catch on.

corvus

One other question: is charging the clicker necessary

Make sure you have an available receptacle and an adapter for the proper voltage .... just kidding.

 I spent a week charging the clicker. Nothing but c/t to cement into universal law that a reward always follows a click, forever, amen. There is not event when a click is used that is not followed by a reward, ever. It is impossible.

Without the click, the game's wide open.

Anyway, I don't have to charge the clicker in each training session. Shadow already knows what it means.

I would catch her by surprise.  Keep some food in your pocket and when she is near you and, calm and not-sitting, click and then drop some food on the floor.  If she is still calm and not-sitting, click again and drop some more.    If she is getting worked up or sitting, get up and move!  If she follows you, click and drop some more.  See? 

NORMALLY I'd charge the clicker by doing rapid fire CTs, but with Penny I would charge the clicker WHILE she is calm and not sitting, just to make absolutely sure I wasn't accidentally reinforcing those things you reeeally don't want to reinforce.  So I would "pause" the game at the first sign of frenzied excitement.  Slump and look away.  (if you've already clicked, still drop that treat.  One click, one treat.  Always.  Every time.)