Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

houndlove

Okay, first of all, I have seen Cesar Millan train discreet behaviors in a pretty normal traditional fashion. Dogs who freak out when someone rings the doorbell, he teaches them an incompatible behavior--sitting calmly. He does so primarily through positive punishment (leash correction) and negative reinforcement (when calm sit is achieved, unpleasantness from the trainer ceases), but that's still operant conditioning of a new behavior.  I might train the same thing using different quads of OC but I'm still using OC and that's still training a dog and modifying a discreet behavior. "The Walk" is training a dog to walk on loose leash in a specific position to the handler using negative reinforcement and positive punishment. Again, I might pick different quads of OC to use to do the same thing, but it's still training a dog to modify it's behavior. So you can't say he has never trained a dog because he does, all the time. If you turn the sound off while watching, you'll see a person training a dog quite a bit.

Turn the sound back on and what you hear him saying however is totally different from what I'm actually witnessing. He doesn't talk about punishing the dog or reinforcing or rewarding the dog, even though that's exactly what he is doing. He talks about energy and dominance and status and when he punishes a dog he will tell the person that the reaction the dog is having to it is not the dog learning a new behavior or stopping an old one but a dog developing a new relationship to the handler. So, nothing that he actually says (or writes) is going to be that useful to someone who wants to train a long-distance down. Watch him with the sound off, though, and you might be able to pick up some training pointers, if that were the way you wanted to train.

YES!!!  That is exactly how I see Milan. 

But, Carla, I'm not a teacher either, but by golly I taught my kids a lot of stuff from the time they were born.  That doesn't mean I'm qualified to get a job in a real school.

glenmar

But, Carla, I'm not a teacher either, but by golly I taught my kids a lot of stuff from the time they were born.  That doesn't mean I'm qualified to get a job in a real school.

Yes, that's true. I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the connection...

My point was that a "trainer" has an intent to train something with a particular result (Like sit, stay, fetch, heel or get mommy a kleenex). Training uses routines and instruction with a specific end in view (a skill). Trainers  are responsible for creating routines to better master a skill. Clicker training is all about mastering skills.

Teachers (whether professional or not) transmit knowledge or help students acquire knowledge. We learn (or are taught) by everything we encounter. Teaching is a broader subject and applies to any manner of imparting information or knowledge (like parenting, or going through a death in the family or through observation). There isn't necessarily instruction, routine or putting the student through a drill.

Teaching encompasses training as sometimes training (potty training for example) is used in teaching (parenting).

FourIsCompany

Clicker training is all about mastering skills.

I have used the clicker for more than just fetch or sit. I have used it to click when calm and then reward. I have changed his behavior or manners in public, in general, and in specific response to other fearful or rude dogs. And while drop it may seem like a specific skill, it is important in social behavior to have that command. And, in a generalization, the fact that the dog listens to me is a behavioral thing, not just a specific skill. So, I must agree with others in that clicker training, +R, -P are just as valid for "rehabilitation" as +P. Or in a recent episode, +P. -P, and finally some +R.

 This doesn't mean I can't teach an old dog new tricks does it?

ron2

And while drop it may seem like a specific skill,

ron2

it is important in social behavior to have that command.

ron2

So, I must agree with others in that clicker training, +R, -P are just as valid for "rehabilitation" as +P.

In other words, I agree with everything you said!   Remember, I'm not the one trying to make out one method to be superior or inferior to the other. I'm just stating how I see the two methods as different in hopes of people understanding my point of view. (I'm not sure why ) I am now employing both methods for the various needs I have. So, I have no interest in proving that one is better than the other. In my opinion, they're not the same thing and cannot be compared.

To me, that's like saying chocolate flavor is better than ice cream. It doesn't make sense.

silverserpher

This doesn't mean I can't teach an old dog new tricks does it?

I plead the fifth! LOL  

Mmmm... Chocolate ice cream...

glenmar

But, Carla, I'm not a teacher either, but by golly I taught my kids a lot of stuff from the time they were born.  That doesn't mean I'm qualified to get a job in a real school.

I dont know, maybe somebody who saw how you did it was impressed by it and started talking about it to other people until one day one of those persons think you have potential and ask you to open your own school, or maybe you are not THAT qualified but that does not mean that someone else can not do it, maybe you could be the next Maria Montessori , or maybe not you but someone else can

FourIsCompany

glenmar

But, Carla, I'm not a teacher either, but by golly I taught my kids a lot of stuff from the time they were born.  That doesn't mean I'm qualified to get a job in a real school.

 

Yes, that's true. I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the connection...

My point was that a "trainer" has an intent to train something with a particular result (Like sit, stay, fetch, heel or get mommy a kleenex). Training uses routines and instruction with a specific end in view (a skill). Trainers  are responsible for creating routines to better master a skill. Clicker training is all about mastering skills.

Teachers (whether professional or not) transmit knowledge or help students acquire knowledge. We learn (or are taught) by everything we encounter. Teaching is a broader subject and applies to any manner of imparting information or knowledge (like parenting, or going through a death in the family or through observation). There isn't necessarily instruction, routine or putting the student through a drill.

Teaching encompasses training as sometimes training (potty training for example) is used in teaching (parenting).

LOL Carla, you must be younger than Glenda and I.  When we went to school, teachers trained you to do those multiplication tables...

I see the differentiation you are trying to make, but I don't see how that really affects the bottom line, which is that the dog is influenced by every interaction it has with humans and the environment.  

I think that stating he is not a trainer is a cop out.  It allows him to dodge the bullet and remain shrouded in his own mystique.

spiritdogs

It allows him to dodge the bullet

Oh? ... so who's doing the shooting and why?

Millan states, clearly and repeatedly, that he trains people. His idols are Dr Wayne Dyer and Tony Robbins. His plans include founding organizations for empowering 3rd world women though skills gained developing leadership to rehab dogs. 

Millan is unique among dog world celerities, in that he focuses on human behavior. That's the fundamental reason why I, too, don't consider him a "dog trainer". 

Ixas_girl

Millan states, clearly and repeatedly, that he trains people.

So if we accept that there's a difference b/w training and behavior modification, and that trainers just train skills or tricks, what is CM training people to do? Sit? Fetch? Rollover?....... 

silverserpher

So if we accept that there's a difference b/w training and behavior modification, and that trainers just train skills or tricks, what is CM training people to do? Sit? Fetch? Rollover?....... 

LOL! No, our dogs train us to do that ... They sit, so we open the door. They stay, so we give them a treat. They tilt their head, so we sit and give them a belly rub. They do a trick so we fetch them dinner .... That's good training!

silverserpher

what is CM training people to do? Sit? Fetch? Rollover?....... 

Good question, i wonder if when a football team is in training thats exactly what that means 

Ixas_girl

silverserpher

So if we accept that there's a difference b/w training and behavior modification, and that trainers just train skills or tricks, what is CM training people to do? Sit? Fetch? Rollover?....... 

 

LOL! No, our dogs train us to do that ... They sit, so we open the door. They stay, so we give them a treat. They tilt their head, so we sit and give them a belly rub. They do a trick so we fetch them dinner .... That's good training!

So that's why she's poking me with her tug toy.  Still though, I'd tune in to see CM training some guy to catch a frisbee with his mouth.   

espencer

silverserpher

what is CM training people to do? Sit? Fetch? Rollover?....... 

 

Good question, i wonder if when a football team is in training thats exactly what that means 

 Good point and I'm also pretty well housebroken so I guess the two do overlap a little.
 

"I think that stating he is not a trainer is a cop out. It allows him to dodge the bullet and remain shrouded in his own mysique"

Yep, just like all of those folks walking around calling themselves "behaviorists", but when someone is having a social, psychological, or behavioral problem with their dog, I hear most everyone here recommending a "behaviorist", "behavior consultant", or "behavior expert", not a trainer.

At this point we have entererd a word dance.

I have a quite background in people training. Some folks had an aptitude for the technical procedures, acuracy, math, and precision. Unfortunatately, what caused them to wash out in the jobs were a lack of social skills, teamwork, co-operation, leadership, or followership. Many of them washed out because they were not taught appropriate social boundaries, ettiquite, chain of command, and goals for the big picture somewhere along the way. Many of them were also anti-social, non-team players with defective boundary systems through how they were raised.

Some folks teach specific mechanical skills, some folks teach appropriate social skills, some folks take a behavior they don't like and shape it into something else, some folks address the cause of the behavior they don't like at it source, and some folks use a bit of everything and are able to think on multiple levels...

...good for them!