Smarter than You think

Throwing stuff at a dog will depend on the dog but mostly, what does an animal do if something is being thrown at it? Something harder than a sock. Run away, right? Some dogs with a high prey drive might come after you. Yes, it would appear to be a recall but might just as well be a chance to take a chunk out of your hide. What does a prey-driven dog do, even in play? They want to bite whatever is handy because that is how they pick up whatever, lacking opposable thumbs and needing their limbs for support. That is why there is a chance of being bit in using prey drive or combat to train the dog.

The kid behind us would throw stuff at Shadow and poke at him with sticks through the fence. It did not have the effect of a dog happy to see him. In fact, I had to threaten legal action to stop it. So, I don't throw stuff at Shadow and God help the person who does.

Which is not to say that you can't use the natural drives of the dog to train. My brother-in-law has a Blue Merle Aussie that loves herd cutting. You can train her to recall by throwing the ball one more time. Yes, that takes longer than treats but, for her, cutting the herd is the raison d'ete.

It also depends on the intents of the strikes. In police dog training, you have to train the dog to ignore strikes from a suspect, which means striking the dog is part of that training but the strikes are not training motivators but environmental distractions that must be dealt with.

But how do you convince your dog that you are the best ever?  It can't be with a 20 foot long lead, yanking her neck saying COME!!!

no, you don't YANK on the dog. Ever. The long line is just for safety, to keep the untrained dog from running out in front of a car or whatever. You really should get Leslie Nelson's "really reliable recall". I'll briefly outline it: you start out by rewarding "check ins". Whenever the dog happens to approach you, you reward the dog well. Pretty soon you'll have a dog doing lots of check-ins as you stroll along. Then you just add the cue, and keep rewarding. Other ways to make yourself fascinating is to at random intervals yell the dog's name and take off running in the opposite direction and reward the dog for chasing after you. Stop abruptly and pretend to find something fascinating on the ground and reward the dog when he comes over to see what's up. Be unpredictable in a fun way so the dog learns that a) he has to keep some attention on you at all times in case fun happens; and b) that coming to you is the best thing ever.

Whistle training is easy and often works much better than a verbal command. Get yourself a whistle and a big hunk of roast beef, stand next to the dog, blow the whistle and feed dog. Repeat a few times. Now start with the dog a few feet away from you, and repeat. Won't be long before the dog is charging at you from long distances away at the sound of the whistle, thinking "whistle = mom wants to feed me goodies".  

You should also, through the lifetime of the dog, practice "head whips", in which you call the dog's name and he gets rewarded for looking at you. It becomes a conditioned response to his name. If you can get your dog's attention, you can get your dog to come when called.

pjcampbell

The thing is that sadly, Cesar Millan's techniques have become the standard in what is the "right" way to train a dog mainly because of television and it being the only information many people get.   He is very recognizable and people have a hard time believing there is a more effective and more humane way! I think the show is entertaining and I am sure the guy has some connection with dogs but I don't agree with the choking.  

Well, you will find that I'm not a great Millan fan, and all my dogs were trained with a variant of Leslie Nelson's "Really Reliable Recall" and they come when called (Aside to FiC: part of the "Rocket Recall" class that I now teach includes whistle training an emergency recall, so I was glad to see you were doing this.).  I find it interesting that you would think choking is not ok, but throwing things at your dog is ok.  Pardon me, but I don't have FiC's aversion to reading material that starts off by slamming someone else - I just read it, and, frankly, Loeb sounds like a whack job, and uses the same kind of "smoke and mirrors" language that many wannabe "gurus" use.

I will check out "Really Reliable Recall" just out of curiosity but I would say that our pup is already trained.

I prefer the concept of not giving treats as the result of a command followed.  Instead, when you are ALL done with everything and the dog has done well, give the dog something even better than treat (like real food).  I guess the idea is to avoid the dog having any association with doing right means food.  And maybe this lessens the chance that if someone else has a treat they will listen to that person and/or ignore you.  For example at the dog park there's always someone with treats in their pocket or holding them in their hand and I probably don't want our pup following this person around, begging, or as nice of a gesture as it is, taking treats from a stranger.  I can call her over and she listens and that is a great thing.  I guess another example is we go out on a walk  without a leash and I don't need to think about having anything with me other than my voice and she listens very well. 

The "magic touch" is throwing a sock at a dog.  Choking is choking.  These 2 things are not on the same level.   If you've ever had a sock thrown at you I doubt you could say it hurts.  Again the object is to make contact, not to pelt at the dog, not to harm the dog.  Dogs are tougher than people.  When they play they chew each others necks for fun.  Do I think throwing things is OK?  I think that you need to be a disciplinarian just like you would to a child.  If throwing a sock a handful of times solves major problems then yes.  I'm open to other possibilities but this is what came my way and it worked.  Also a choke collar, training collar, "release collar", prong collar,  are typically tools that get used throughout the dog's life. At least for several months while we used them (they were "required" as part of the obedience class we took) and never really helped much.  Of course it's not that difficult to get an animal to go when you go and stop when you stop when you've got them by the neck. The sock throwing could only be a handful of times. After that the sock evolved into voice control (at least for me) and she responds very very well to that. She responds very well even to huge distractions.  Examples are walking directly next to a dog who is behind an electric fence (a concept I'm sure which my dog doesn't understand since she's never been on one) and she will stay by my side.  That is a pretty big distraction I would say.

Have you read his books?  There is a newer book "Heart of the matter" which I have not yet read.  He brings many points to the table, not just throwing things.  I will admit some of them are a little weird (matchstick up the butt) but a lot of them maybe you go HMMMMM... and yes that sounds a lot nicer for the dog and makes much more sense.  For us it prompted us to get rid of the crate and change her diet considerably.  A negative point, I thought it was very odd that his huge section on DIET didn't include any comment on the dog's activity level.  I think exercise is a huge aspect in a dog's life and of course more activity = more calories burned = more food intake required.  I am by no means a guru or an expert.  I've had a dog for literally 6 months and she never "needs" to be on the leash.  It is really a joy for all of us and I often question how she got this way (she didn't come this way from the shelter!).  The only thing I can think of is that it was the "magic touch" because after choke collars did nothing for me .  Otherwise it could simply be the confidence gained thinking "the dog is going to listen to me."

For what it's worth, our dog does not follow me like this:  I would be curious as to what their methods are. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8648svGFc 

I think the bottom line is that we want to be happy and our dog's to be happy and for us a huge part of this is being off leash.  I don't think it's a requirement but it's a wonderful quality of life improvement for both.

After watching two of my friends dogs go through horrible cases of pancreatitus, I'd caution against sharing food. And I'm saying this for our quiet readers. You have to be very very careful as to what they eat because tables scraps can bring it on and it's quite deadly.

I prefer the concept of not giving treats as the result of a command followed.  Instead, when you are ALL done with everything and the dog has done well, give the dog something even better than treat (like real food).  I guess the idea is to avoid the dog having any association with doing right means food. 

this is a complete misunderstanding of the use of food. Or the use of any reward or "discipline". Try reading Karen Pryor's lovely little book "don't shoot the dog". It clearly lays out the principles of behavioral modification. All dog owners or even non-dog owners who have to interact with other people would benefit from reading this book.

mudpuppy

I prefer the concept of not giving treats as the result of a command followed...
I guess the idea is to avoid the dog having any association with doing right means food. 

this is a complete misunderstanding of the use of food. 

Really? You mean giving the dog a treat is NOT because he followed a command or got it right? What is it, then?  

FourIsCompany

Really? You mean giving the dog a treat is NOT because he followed a command or got it right? What is it, then

What mudpuppy was saying is that the idea that dog will always associate food with doing right is the misconception. Treats are used as a reinforcer to establish a new behavior. Later on, one can drastically reduce and vary the times rewards are given. In fact, differentially reinforced behaviors have a tendency to be stronger. She was not saying that the treat is not because he followed the command. And, that the idea that you will have to treat the dog forever is a misconception although some behaviors that are not self-rewarding might need an occasional reinforcement. In my view, a normal timeline would have heavy treats at the beginning, thinning out to sporadic (like a slot machine) to hardly ever. Because, after a certain amount of time, the behavior or response to command becomes habit, residual long after the dog had associated the behavior with food.

But let's run with the idea that a dog might always associate doing right with a tasty treat. I actually bank on that idea. And it's worked well for me. There's a dog that associates playing frisbee with doing right. There's a couple of hounds that associate doing right with play hunting. And some dogs that seem to value affection or privileged closeness to humans above all else. Aren't those dogs obssessing, too? To make matters worse, those dogs that train with another reward besides food, get to engage in those activities all the time. I know an Aussie that lives to herd and cut the ball. She will run until she drops. The hounds get to play all the time. I might spent ten minutes giving treats.

Also a choke collar, training collar, "release collar", prong collar,  are typically tools that get used throughout the dog's life. At least for several months while we used them (they were "required" as part of the obedience class we took) and never really helped much.  Of course it's not that difficult to get an animal to go when you go and stop when you stop when you've got them by the neck.

Your first statement is certainly NOT a given.  The dog in my avatar has never had any of these collars on her - ever.  And, wonder of wonders, she walks in a heel just like the dog in the video.  She was clicker trained - with homemade liver brownies;-))  If you used those devices for "several months" and they didn't work, you were either using them incorrectly or they were not the correct solution for the training situation.  And, I dislike the idea that I would only be able to get my dog to go with me, or stop, just because I had her by the neck.  I rather like the fact that she is thinking that walking with me is the best thing since sliced bread - because she knows that every once in a while, despite the fact that she has been fully trained for a long time, I toss her a "paycheck" for a job well done. To each his own, but if you think that positive means permissive, you are quite wrong about that.  Food is a reinforcer, sure, but there are lots of others, many of which I use in my training.  But, if you think that a dog will work for what YOU want him to, the only way that happens is by force because, by definition, a reinforcer is anything the dog wants.  And, if a dog still pulls despite all the "tools", it is because he is reinforced somehow for doing it - probably because when he pulls the human goes with him.  So, in that case, the reinforcer is getting where he wants to go. 

I have not read the book, so I can't comment on his techniques other than as they've been described in this thread, but I can't even imagine a form of training that would include throwing stuff at my dogs. Well, except for food. I have used a handful of treats tossed at a dog to distract them and break their attention off something, like when Cassidy wanted to chase the cats, or Keefer pitches a hissy fit at the neighborhood cats stalking birds in our yard.