Dog trainers or dog behavorists

    • Gold Top Dog
    Here's one experience I remember reading (it took me a while to dredge it back up from the bowels of the internet again):http://www.dogster.com/forums/other_posts.php?st=pet&pet_id=388590
    • Gold Top Dog
    Both actually.  Some dogs ARE unfixable - you get dogs with something wrong inside their heads just like you do with people.  Perhaps CM has never encountered one of these dogs.  More likely his failures have not been publicised, perhaps after many years of experience there are not many but I doubt that there are none.... that really does imply that he is totall infallible and possibly the second coming of Christ!!! [:D]

    I am curious whether the "never put a dog down" is his own policy or something you claim on his behalf?  What would he do if he did (god forbid) encounter a dog he could not help - would he still say "don't put him down"?

    I am also curious whether the claim that his method "always works" is his own or whether it's just your observation (from watching his shows etc - which will obviously include success stories - and your own experiences with using his techniques).

    There is more to controlling resources than simply being  the one who feeds the dog.  Otherwise none of us would EVER have ANY problem behaviours.  That line of argument is therefore rather too simplistic for my taste and I choose not take it any further.

    Edit to add: I am now going to his site to look for answers to my questions on CMs failures and policy on PTS.  I will email, although I expect I will not get a response. I will let you all know if I do.
    • Gold Top Dog
    The person in the article (and dog) had 2 lessons - that is not enough to modify any behavior - that is my only comment.
     
    dianeg
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: houndlove

    Here's one experience I remember reading (it took me a while to dredge it back up from the bowels of the internet again): [linket_id=388590]http://www.dogster.com/forums/other_posts.php?st=pet&;pet_id=388590[/link]>http://www.dogster.com/forums/other_posts.php?st=pet&;pet_id=388590]http://www.dogster.com/forums/other_posts.php?st=pet&;pet_id=388590[/link]


    "Little did she know that he practically strangled me when she wasn't looking" haha that was funny, if this lady is suppouse to be writing like if it was the dog doing it then how does she knows CM "strangled" the dog if she was not looking? Clear example of a Human seeing her dog as a baby and if she does not like the techniques that does not mean they dont work, also we dont know either if the owner followed CM's intructions after each session or she didnt do anything because she didnt like to "strangle" her dog, CM goes and tells you what to do, if you have a negative perspective from the beginning then you are not going to make it work
    • Gold Top Dog
    Good point - maybe the trainers out there who participate here could tell us how they interact with the owners.... I presume initially there is a questionnaire or telephone call to get a bit of background, a home visit to assess and then .....?  Is there a schedule of visits for a set amount of time, or just one follow up visit arranged and then further visits as needed?  Would you just be available on the end of the phone whenever they needed you?  Would you make sure you called them to see how they were getting on, make sure they were doing everything properly or would you wait for them to call you if they need to?  Is this different depending on whether you are a trainer or behaviourist?  Or doesis jsut differ from professional to professional?
     
    houndlove thanks for the link.... interesting but I'd want to see more dissatisfied testimonials, not just that one.  After all, anyone could have written that and just made it up couldn't they?  Have they contacted CM with a formal complaint that they could tell us about and what was his response?  It would be good if we could see CMs side of that story.  Perhaps the owner wasn't following his method consistently?  And how did they know CM strangle dthe dog when they weren't looking.... if they weren't looking?!!!!!
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Chuffy

    Both actually.  Some dogs ARE unfixable - you get dogs with something wrong inside their heads just like you do with people.  Perhaps CM has never encountered one of these dogs.  More likely his failures have not been publicised, perhaps after many years of experience there are not many but I doubt that there are none.... that really does imply that he is totall infallible and possibly the second coming of Christ!!! [:D]



    I stand corrected now that i remember only 2 dogs could not be rehabilitated from all the one he has helped, still thats a pretty good record

    Your  "second coming" comment was lame and actually i find it a little bit offensive
     
    EditeD because those 2 dogs were not PTS [:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Well that is just the thing, anyone can claim anything, good or bad. Without conclusive proof, it's all just hearsay. It's hearsay that his methods always work and it's hearsay that he's being abusive. But I've noticed that when it's positive hearsay it's considered "proof" and when it's negative hearsay it's considered "lies". Either way, none of us here that I know of has anything to go on aside from a heavily edited TV show, a ghost-written book, and a professional produced marketing website. I've never claimed that any other trainers who's books I've read is 100% successful 100% of the time because I can't know that for a fact and seriously doubt that any trainer is always successful. I know what they write in their books and what seems to make sense to me, and I know what I try with my own dogs that works and doesn't, but claiming infallibility is really a stretch.

    Also, on the Dogster forums its sort of the thing to do to write your posts from your dog's perspective. I don't do it becuase it just seems hokey, but a lot of other people do.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Chuffy

    houndlove thanks for the link.... interesting but I'd want to see more dissatisfied testimonials, not just that one


    http://forum.dog.com/discus/messages/48/137252.html
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: houndlove

    Well that is just the thing, anyone can claim anything, good or bad. Without conclusive proof, it's all just hearsay. It's hearsay that his methods always work and it's hearsay that he's being abusive. But I've noticed that when it's positive hearsay it's considered "proof" and when it's negative hearsay it's considered "lies". Either way, none of us here that I know of has anything to go on aside from a heavily edited TV show, a ghost-written book, and a professional produced marketing website. I've never claimed that any other trainers who's books I've read is 100% successful 100% of the time because I can't know that for a fact and seriously doubt that any trainer is always successful. I know what they write in their books and what seems to make sense to me, and I know what I try with my own dogs that works and doesn't, but claiming infallibility is really a stretch.


     
    Well like i said in the beginning thats your opinion and mine is mine, since he could not help 2 dogs then lets change it to "99% of the times always works" 
    • Gold Top Dog
      Your  "second coming" comment was lame and actually i find it a little bit offensive

     
    Comments like "it always works" are the sort of thing that make people THINK "lame" comments like that, it makes them skeptical from the get go, because they know that such a claim is just not realistic.... and it is fine keeping with the trend that some of the CM following have of being almost religious/fanatical about him and his ideas.  It just puts people off.  It puts me off no end.  I was on his site earlier and found myself nodding my head to quite a bit of his advice and ideas...... (not all, but then no trainer has ever done that for me).  It  seems to be a personality type within CMs following that I clash with rather than all CM fans or CM himself. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Maybe we need to check out other trainers and behaviorists, and see what their success rate is.
    I think that one needs to stick with the training protocol, and most people don't.
    • Gold Top Dog

    So like i was saying, i like CM because he does not work to be the "pack member who can open the fridge" but to be a leader instead, dogs have a role model to follow, dogs have someone who is there to set up discipline when some members dont follow the rules, dogs can be more relaxed since they are not in charge of that

    I think his succesfull rate could be higher than most of the trainers out there, like i said before, dogs are not made of glass, you cant use violence but people think that if you touch the dog in the shoulder to redirect that uses more force and could traumatize the dog
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'll take the "Millan is not a trainer" mantra one step further.

    Nobody, 50 years ago, was being the Tony Robbins of the dog world. In his TV shows, Millan's emphasis on human behavior is readily apparent. His show is not all about training with corrections to the dog, it#%92s all about modifying human-dog relationships by motivating humans.

    Millan is a motivational speaker, in the model of our contemporary life coaches, but with a twist, because he makes televised house calls, and is hands-on. He claims Tony Robbins and Wayne Dyer among his heroes. He and his wife are building a growing company that aims to foster betterment for dogs through empowering people. He is not psychologist, biologist, nor ethologist, but rather, like other motivational speakers, he#%92s made himself successful through trial and error, and, yes, by cultivating the instinct he was born with. People are attracted to that, which is why he#%92s popular.

    Millan demonstrates, in each episode, that many companion dog problems are created by human psychology. He demonstrates how people use dogs to fulfill their own emotional neediness. His “terse” handling of animals is a logical approach in trying to break a cultural habit of over-emotionalizing pets. He#%92d probably say that coddling does more damage to dogs than slip leads do. He probably finds many so called +R methods to be fraught with unhealthy co-dependent dynamics.

    Millan#%92s show is about leaving people, and their dogs, better than he found them, which generally means that they are exercising more self-control. He motivates fatherless boys to become confident young men in handling their feisty GSD, he inspires a chaotic house of young ladies and their mom to create more structure when their pitbull is becoming dangerous, he gets a family to see that they#%92re spoiling their little terrier in deference to the memory of a dead aunt. He motivates people to stop being embarrassed about setting high standards, and he gives them tools to reach those outcomes. Millan gets people to see how they create unhealthy environments for their dogs. He focuses on modifying the human#%92s behavior.

    Millan is supremely agile, physically. I#%92m an artist with much background in dance, movement, and performance. When I watch Millan handle animals, I see precise self-control, and a sophisticated knowledge of movement mechanics. On TV, I#%92ve seen him massage dogs, I#%92ve seen him speak softly to them, I#%92ve seen him communicate through the lead with only a wiggle of his pinky. His alpha rolls are delicate, and his so called “hanging” is calm and swift. In both of those controversial moves he redirects the animals own energy, rather than “applying force” to the animal. He#%92s expert at that fundamental martial arts concept because of his training. Millan#%92s not a brute, he#%92s a well developed instrument.

    That said, The Millan#%92s are candid in interviews about their learning curve and personal growth, together as a couple, as well as professionally. I wouldn#%92t be surprised that he#%92s modifying his methods in response to criticism. He strikes me as being a lifelong learner. I find the Millans to be a great model for right livelihood, philanthropic work, and good basic values, as imperfect as they may be.

    Millan *touches* people. That kind of talent - ya can#%92t buy a diploma for it, ya either got it or ya don#%92t.

    Edited to add: IMO, the major "method" he teaches people, besides "mastering the walk" is NILIF. Not bad!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Espencer,

    I believe I've read in his book that the two dogs were not put down, but were living in a "managed" state with people they trusted and away from society.

    I've heard he also wants to see a sanctuary set up so that certain dogs like these can be studied and live out their lives in peace. This way the dogs could be studied and not be so isolated, or be put down.
     
    Wouldn't be surprised if he has something like this planned at his new 42 acre facility. [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

    I'll take the "Millan is not a trainer" mantra one step further.

    Nobody, 50 years ago, was being the Tony Robbins of the dog world. In his TV shows, Millan's emphasis on human behavior is readily apparent. His show is not all about training with corrections to the dog, it's all about modifying human-dog relationships by motivating humans.

    Millan is a motivational speaker, in the model of our contemporary life coaches, but with a twist, because he makes televised house calls, and is hands-on. He claims Tony Robbins and Wayne Dyer among his heroes. He and his wife are building a growing company that aims to foster betterment for dogs through empowering people. He is not psychologist, biologist, nor ethologist, but rather, like other motivational speakers, he's made himself successful through trial and error, and, yes, by cultivating the instinct he was born with. People are attracted to that, which is why he's popular.


     
    Bingo.  I think this is exactly right.  I also think there is a really thin line between where this benefits people and where it exploits them.  If you cross the line you become a fortune teller or a snake oil salesman.