Heated debates....

..... but I just wonder if having the seperate area for CM exacerbates that, and whether just having a "heated debate" area (to include CM and any other "hot" issues) wouldn't do just as much to keep the peace without seperating the board into "cliques".....

I don't see any problems with people sticking to a Clicker section or CM section to get information and recommendations from folks, but there has to be a place where debates are welcomed from bothe sides.
What I am beginning to see though, is that people start with a solution - a clicker, for example, and post their problem in that section... Should be problem first, and then maybe solution will come from a C.Millan's area.

I'm glad the endless CM-hero worship (he's on TV! he must know everything!) got its own board so we don't have to be subject to it, but I don't really understand why we need a clicker board per se. If you have a behavior/training problem or solution, you probably should just post on those boards and see what advice/ comments show up.

I am also glad the CM area is seperate because looking back at old posts I can see the hero worship and the regurgitation of scrambled info and how irritating it must have been.... One things become clear to me since rejoining this forum and that is that CM is very misunderstood..... as often by his followers as by his critics!  I now find it much easier just to stay away from that area of the board and thinking about it I'd be kind of disappointed if subject matters there bled over into others areas of the board. 

Often in the Clicker section people are usually sharing success stories or asking questions about the application of the techniques and I see that as just a valid use of a forum as suggesting solutions to behaviour problems....  It doesn't have to be "My dog is doing X, how do I fix that?" it could be "I want to do X with my dog, how do I....." Or even "Hey guess what, I taught my dog to skateboard!" 

If someone goes to the clicker training area to learn to use this tool/method, they are also getting a chance to learn about the value of positive reinforcement in operant conditioning and general learning theory terminologies, without having to defend that choice. I'm not going to rush over there and tell someone to stop clicker training because they are having some problems and that a CM solution would be "better".

While someone is in that section they are already being helped in their chosen method and I have to trust people to make their own choices without giving them a CM "sales" pitch or trying to "convert" them like some sort of religeous fanatic. 

Personal freedom of choice and independant thought is a wonderful thing. I don't find clicker training to be in opposition to CM's basic philosopies at all (although some of it's proponants sure seem to!). Cesar does not focus on "training" to begin with. I wouldn't use a CM philosophy to agility train a dog, but I would use it to stop the owner's dog from dragging them to the car and attacking other dogs, after the agility session. []

If someone goes to the CM area, they are learning to use leadership, social learning, fulfillment by design, and how our human behavior affects our dog, regardless of what "training" methods and philosophies we may also use at times. And also the "in context" use of certain words and terminologies without having to get into endless emotional word definitions and misinformation debates in order to communicate.

I find both sections productive and useful as long as there is respect shown towards the participants of each area. There is only one person who has been disrespectful and disruptive in the clicker area.

The rest of the board, is a mix of everything and everyone's viewpoints, take 'em or leave 'em. []

Some who actively oppose Cesar, his philosophies, methods, show, books, DVDs, etc...will always be happier without a CM section. But those who understand and support him (or a similar philosophy) and wish to discuss and share what they've learned, are very grateful to have a safe place to do it.

I am so glad this section is now being well moderated. []

ETA: My! This has turned into quite an anti-Cesar and anti-Cesar supporter thread in it's own right...take it or leave it! Tsk-tsk-tsk. []

ETA: My! This has turned into quite an anti-Cesar and anti-Cesar supporter thread in it's own right...take it or leave it! Tsk-tsk-tsk.

Damn, it did [:@]. I think I'll leave it at that.
(Forum rule no.x - know when to shut up. [])

There is this thread going which started with a large statement of what you might call reverse discrimination, just plain old prejudistic entrapments.  Instead of being angered by it for some reason the Borat's Kazbakhistan(sp?) national anthem comes to mind...It is too funny and can completely deflate any "heated argument".  You would have had to have seen this politically (and other ways )incorrect film.  Rather ridiculous and strangely amusing all in one. 

Would it mean more work for moderators or less?

 
Less.  If you have true "debate only" areas for known heated topics, that's what you will get.  If you don't want to go there and be all offended, get upset or feel attacked then don't go there. 
 
Not to keep bringing up parenting, but that's the only debate model I know.  I don't do forums (just this one!) but I used to belong to Babycenter when I had my twins.  It went like this......
 
Debates:
breast vs. bottle
SAHM vs. working mom
circumcision, is it necessary?
to spank or not to spank?
Family bed
Crying it out at night
 
Below is a their disclaimer you will get as you click on a specific debate topic.  They have rules, but for the most part this is set up for heated discussions. 
 
"NOTE: Please follow our [linkhttp://www.babycenter.com/community/guidelines]community guidelines[/link] in all your posts. This is a debate board. On debate boards, viewpoints and opinions are questioned, challenged, and held up to scrutiny. If having your opinions challenged and being expected to defend your position will make you uncomfortable, please don't participate here. Instead, visit one of our [linkhttp://boards.babycenter.com/bcus]more than 875 other bulletin boards[/link], where you can find support on all sorts of topics. "
 
I think it opens up areas for very lively discussions for those that chose to participate. 

I absolutely love that idea.  We could put up a sign at the gate - weenies go home! [sm=devil.gif]

Anti CM?!  If only I cared enough to be anti-CM.....  I think he only came up on this thread because he's been the topic of a lot of heated debates, so it was relevant. 
 
To start with I thought the debate area was a good idea.  But then I thought, even when the topic wasn't Cesar, a lot of threads would become a CM row (like in the bad old days of this forum, before the seperate section) which would just get plain old boring for a few of us.  Which would result in it metamorphosing into a 2nd CM board when we already have one.... Only difference being that on the 2nd one "bashing" would be considered perfectly OK.... some people would probably see that as a good thing, others not.  And there will come a time in the not-too-distant future when CM is not the flavour of the month anymore.... and no doubt another HOT topic will take his place.  And it will all be just as boring and argumentative and silly.
 
Let's face it, how many topics for heated debate ARE there and how many times can you chew over them before you get bored of the same old merry go round arguments?  I say let heated debates come and go and die a death when people get bored of them.... don't condense them into one area where they out-stay their welcome and don't give the impression that being deliberately offensive in defense of your point of view is OK.