Isn't it all about balance?

Basically the two camps I see are the following:

I think there might be something else in there - dogs aren't entirely hardwired at all, but are full of potential and enjoy being "shaped."  They like to push boundaries and learn things.  I've seen so many rescues "bloom" in this way, from dull-minded backyard dog to brilliant-eyed seekers of knowlege.  And looking at that video of Skidboot and his trainer has made me think of this too.

I think of my Maremmas.  Now there's a dog with a mind of its own.  I don't try to fine tune them, although it would be fun to put a U-CD on one, just to see what it would take.  But the principles I learned from working with the BCs apply to the Maremmas.  I work with a little R+, a little aversives (seperation from the flock is the worst aversive for them, shouting and body posture means nothing in itself), and a whole lot of using their own language and desires to get what I need out of them.  the Maremmas taught me a lot about canine communication - their language is so positive and clear (it has to be - they are bred for interspecies communication).

Two comments have occurred on this particular discussion that I would like to expand.
 
Yes I believe that positive reenforcement strategies have less potential for harm than aversive techniques.  I do believe that getting what you want out of your dog with treat based training, which unfortunately is what a fair number of people believe positive reenforcement training is, does not always happen quickly enough to satisfy some folks in a basic obedience class.  They encounter difficulty with timing, finding a reenforcer that is powerful enough, dealing with pushy excited behavior from the dogs etc.
 
I try and teach using a positive reenforcement method that uses a lot of management strategies so the dogs end up getting it right.  It is hard since classes on either side of my ring are more heavy on the aversive approach and you dont get me first. 
 
I have found that I some times have to use a backdoor approach with someone to get them to consider an alternative.  I have found I get a whole lot further if I do it slow and easy with a successive approximation approach.
 
My post was more directed to the idea that this is a work in progress for many of us, with steps forward and steps back.  Trying to achieve balance that is dynamic is one option for consideration.  The balancing act may be more to positive reenforcement, to management or to aversives based on the situation.  It should never remain static.  An aversive that prevents a collision with a moving car, a management strategy of double locked gates, a practice time on the curb in a lawn chair tugging on a rope while cars that you want to chase go by all have potential value.

You might then appreciate the working pyr ( had a small flock she stayed with during the day due to coyotes and loose dogs) who qualified in Open A two days in a row at our dog show about 3 years ago.[]

I have a lot of respect for that person!  [sm=wink2.gif]  Although livestock guardian breeds do at least seek some guidance - even more amazing are people who are able to motivate the completely self-directed breeds like Shiba Inus or Finnish spitz where you walk a fine balance between "OK, that sounds like fun!" and "You and the horse you rode in on!"

I have a belgian acquaintance who put a ud on a shar pei and another who retired a wired haired fox terrier with OTCH points.  Better trainers than I will ever be []  just dont want to work that hard.  Like the other belgian friend who trained an otterhound to herd LOL

There are obedience and agility champion coonhounds out there. And yeah, again, clearly a gifted trainer!  Some dogs forgive you your training errors easily. Those dogs would not be coonhounds. []