Slate mag's take on CM

Though it may not seem like it, at times, I do value Anne's advice. Most people are not going to have her background to compare different methods, most dog owners have not been to college for an education in behavioral psychology. In fact, I would go as far as to say that on this forum, though lacking a DVM tag, Anne is the closes thing to a behaviorist. Most dog owners are, at first, going to go by results. Some one bought a good car. Where did they buy it? Some one has a well-trained dog. How or where did they accomplish that? When I took Shadow to get his vacc's updated, there was a guy there with 2 Dobies, a red and a brown. The brown was off-leash. Even though she came over to greet Shadow, she went back to her owner when he called her. Training. And we didn't have time for me to ask him in depth.
 
There are times, in the backyard, when Shadow is keyed up on something when he will ignore my recall. I've learned some new stuff recently about how to talk to a dog in a way that they understand which has resulted in some better results but the recall is not perfect. Part of that is breed trait. His dominant breed was not bred for recall and retrieval. And that's part of why I don't walk him off-leash.
 
But dogs can be conditioned and do have memory. We've recently had bad experience with off-leash dogs, which is a normal situation in our town. So, another day or so later, we're walking and and some else is walking their dog with a leash and not giving any confrontational signals I can see and Shadow starts to bark and growl. Why? Because that has been his experience going for a walk in this town. There are times when I will take him to the Shopping Center where the Petco is just for a walk so that we can have at least one walk where the dogs are relatively well-behaved and least leashed up. How often do I work on his recall? At least a dozen times a day, changing the reward among treats, affection, and play. That is, I always reward a recall. And when he is misbehaving, I continue the command but I don't get mad. I want recall to be something he is not afraid of. So, I think I understand the importance of inclusion and joyous reward of +R, even if he ignores at times.
 
But I don't think most people are going to read as much as Anne has, though I am the type to read everything imaginable, from the side of a box of cereal to the EPR Event in Quantum Mechanics.
 
And I don't mind if this thread has wandered if it results in increased education. But, to borrow from +R, a person is not going to get good results by hollering at a dog or human. That is, we need to make following Anne's understanding more rewarding than CM's way. Ignore the CM and re-direct to Clothier, et al, in a fun way. And, there must be contingencies for dealing with dogs from a simple re-leashing up to and not excluding, euthanasia. And, people such as Anne, may simply have that "thing" that to which dogs always respond. OT comparison, my wife has the right sunny disposition to work well in retail and her employers hate to see her go and now, she has two jobs, again. Me, I'm a tall, long-haired /*+hole with a certificate to prove it. It's in a frame above my chair. So, to agree with Anne, +R is the best way to go for many reasons, especially if you are not a natural-born dog whisperer or listener.

Is it just me or every single time the CM topic comes up it quickly degenerates into a "purely +R" vs " using compulsion" debate; or into a "why do Patricia McConnell, Karen Pryor etc. don't have the same amount of followers?"

That's certainly been the path of recent CM debates. This thread started out with someone posting a link to a humorous article where one person used a simple, non-harmful technique from CM and it, IMHO and inflammatory language, blew apart from there. I don't "defend" CM so much but I relate what I've learned from watching his show, though I don't necessarily use his exact techniques. You can Tsst, gesundheit, or humperdinkle, as long as it is redirecting or curbing the behavior that you don't want. And certainly, there's a range of authors out there with a range of education and credentials, or lack thereof.

I've seen college grads and trade school grads not know some things I know that I have learned through daily experience. I know some things that people in my trade for decades still don't know because my math goes beyond 1 + 1 = 2. But, as is often the case, one is judged by results. All of my knowledge and experience doesn't guarantee, per se, that I will achieve results. It helps but it is more important that I am able to deal with people and organize work than it is to be able to explain the importance and reason for the square root of 3 in three-phase power equations. I still learn new stuff. A week ago, I learned that a Texas Rat Snake shorted across the isolator on a power pole will conduct approx., after a transformer knocks it down to 277/480, 130 volts. That's not in any textbook or trade course. That's from being there with my meter measuring the incoming voltage out of a utility transformer into a main switchgear. Point being, not any one form of education is complete and we all learn something every day, and each person may have something to add. Or we may learn how not to do something.

I've noticed on recent episodes of CM's show, he's been handling less drastic cases. So, you will see less drastic measures taken, as well. I still think the fairest way to provide counterpoint to CM's method is to, in fact, offer a show of total +R and judge the results of that.

I recently read an article that really sums up my feelings on the CM debate:

[linkhttp://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-lspets4896542sep18,0,6172018.column?coll=ny-news-columnists]An Outcry over 'Dog Whisperer'[/link]

This quote from the article really sums alot of it up:

On dog-centric e-mail lists, his advocacy of collar pops and alpha-rolls has led positive trainers - who advocate reward-based training instead of coercion - to verbally eviscerate him with a ferocity that belies the training maxim of "Reward what you like, and ignore the rest."...Now, I'd just as soon alpha-roll a dog as let him teethe on a pair of Jimmy Choos. But at the risk of having the purely positive police repossess my clickers, I am hard-pressed to join the wholesale condemnation of Millan.

So many people that slam and critizise Cesar Millan don't offer any alternative options.  They just yell about how horrible he is.  This is not to cause a heated debate, but I'm sincerely curious as to how you or someone with a similar philosophy on dog training would handle a case like this. 

You say it's wrong to put a dog-aggressive dog with a balanced and stable pack of dogs.  In my untrained mind Cesar doing this made sense to me.  My understanding was he that he wanted to use the influence of a stable pack of dogs to rehabilitate the agressive pit-bull.  A fight broke out, which I really don't think was Cesar's intent, but it was a good oppertunity to correct this unwanted behavior.  We're dealing with dogs here and no matter how in tune you are with them or how much training you've had, the unexpected will occasionally happen and you have to act on it.  How would you have handeld this case? 

I own a highly dog aggressive Rottweiler, which is a rescue and was not socialized before I got her. Her dog aggression is not defensive or fear induced her aggression is offensive and with small dogs predatorial.  She too is a last chance dog that I was going to send to Rottie rescue or have euthanized her aggression was that bad...plus, she was showing predatory drift toward humans as well.  I decided to work with her,and I did get very attached to her as well[] 

For starters, Athena lives with a group of well mannered and highly social dogs...does this mean she is rehabilitated...NO. They don't just learn to love all dogs because they have learned to be social. True dog aggression is much more in-depth than that .

I just wanted to add that everyone seems so in awe of CM when he takes a dog and the dog acts so wonderfully for him. I have had first hand experience with a  positive only trainer taking Athena from me and Athena did not show ANY dog aggression at all with her!!! I left the dog aggression seminar feeling betrayed by my own dog as Athena was lunging and acting like a horribly aggressive dog with me...then the instructor came over and took her from me and proceeded to walk Athena past all the dogs by luring her into a look at me command...Athena didn't even look at the other dogs as she was so interested in the trainer. So, it's not just CM who has a good technique...it's all about how the handler conducts themselves with the dog etc. I learned a lot about my own carriage, body language etc.

With Athena, just because I can put her out with our other 4 dogs does not mean she is now social with other dogs. I also look after my brothers little dog quite a bit and Athena LOVES that little dog and is very good and patient with Chance...she actually has more patience with the little dog than Dilon our Newf does.

Athena also gets along great with all 9 of my friends Newf's and I put her out with them in the compound while working the kennel. She also gets along famously with my friend Natalies 2 female Collies, female Shepherd and male collie. Do I think Athena is reformed and will do well with all dogs...heck no!!! Just because she gets along well with some other dogs, and does well in a group situation and is very patient does not mean that she is cured of dog aggression. Dog aggression is, at least true dog aggression in an unsocialized dog can be selective....for example once Athena knows the smell of a certain dog she will never attack that dog because she is familiar with that dogs smell. If she meets a new dog she is automatically offensive...the only way I can introduce her to new dogs is with a muzzle and a surprise meeting where she is so intent on getting the muzzle off that she starts rubbing up against the new dogs body while trying to get it off...this way the other dog is not put into a defense mode...and Athena while getting the muzzle off is getting the other dogs scent. I have had a 100% success rate with this method as it allows me to safely introduce her. If she makes eye contact with the other dog before rubbing up against them it's all over and she will attack...thus another reason I use the muzzle. Athena will attack before giving any signals etc and has surprised other dogs (another reason I keep a muzzle on her while trying to introduce)
A truly dog aggressive dog needs to have a positive first meeting with all new dogs...you can't just expect that if you let the dog have one great meeting and let the dog learn how to act with other dogs that they are suddenly cured. That would be more of a defensive or scared dog therapy. If I took a submissive fearful dog and let it play with other dogs and learn form them then the dog may not react in a defensive manner in the future.

Even at the dog aggression seminar I attended it was amazing that I was the only one there with a true dog aggressive dog that was offensive not fearful. All the other dogs there were just fearful or defensive and once they learned to interact they were better and I heard positive things about these dogs after the aggression seminar. It's just not that easy with a truly dog aggressive offensive dog with high prey drive/complete series of motor patterns.

Each dog is different and by seeing a positive only dog trainer or behaviorist they can guide the owner on the proper technique for "that" dog.

I found the original article very entertaining, just as entertaining as the NYT's op-ed piece. This is always such a black and white argument on any dog forum when the truth is a lot grayer. There is no one perfect technique for everyone. Even the +R people use many of the same techniques that Cesar advocates. We all just love to label our beliefs and than must defend them at all costs. I am as guilty of it as anyone else here. This thread just really shows how we all do it to some degree.

I think the best post in this thread was from the guy who seems to have the least amount of dog in the fight, Wyoming Puppy.

I agree.  At least Wyoming Puppy is open to the possibility that there are more modern, and perhaps effective techniques and wants to learn more about them.  []