Correction Technique??

Angelique,
Wow, that's a great site, you've recommended it before, but sometimes I have to hear things 3 times for it to sink in. [8D] I was just surfing around - there's a wealth of stuff there! Thanks![]

In "Find a Professional", there's a search feature by area, and a selection for type of service. I'm guessing you'd recommend looking for "behavior counseling" rather than "trainer"? I notice for my area, Los Angeles, Cesar and Illusion Millan appear under behavior counseling, not trainers, while Linn Boyke comes up under both. Would the article on "Selecting a Trainer" be applicable to behavior counselors as well http://www.dogpro.org/index.php?pageID=94)?

ORIGINAL: Angelique
In a dog's mind, followers to not discipline leaders. So if the dog sees you as a follower, you are wasting your disciplinary actions until the relationship dynamics change. IMO

I also want to acknowledge how powerful that statement is! It's really been on my mind ...

If the dog sees you as a follower

Tina,
I love your description of your greeting ritual. Beautiful! Very calm, functional, and respectful [] I do something similar. Ixa sits while I put down my stuff/use the restroom/whatever, then I crouch down to her and greet her. I'm still training BF on that - he greets with an excited, "HIiiiieee Eeeeexa!!!" and lets her jump up, [8|]

And, yes, she follows me around, but not just at greeeting, it's all the time, hehee. Cattledogs are known for being "velcro" dogs. She's sacked out at my feet right now, if I went into the kitchen to do dishes, she'd relocate her nap to the kitchen floor. As far as I know, she just likes to be near me, when she actually wants something she's good about asking for it.

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Okie dokie all...
 
Let's get [sm=backtotopic.gif] !

sorry.

ETA: But I don't think ALL of the content of my post needed to be removed. Maybe the first part. The rest I feel was an explanation to the picking apart of my first post in this thread.
Now it just looks like I'm a big idiot for posting my first post.

But that's OK. I'm not a "normal" in the CM discussion area.

I'll find my way out.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

In "Find a Professional", there's a search feature by area, and a selection for type of service. I'm guessing you'd recommend looking for "behavior counseling" rather than "trainer"? I notice for my area, Los Angeles, Cesar and Illusion Millan appear under behavior counseling, not trainers, while Linn Boyke comes up under both. Would the article on "Selecting a Trainer" be applicable to behavior counselors as well ([linkhttp://www.dogpro.org/index.php?pageID=94]http://www.dogpro.org/index.php?pageID=94[/link])?

Many canine professionals within this organization use a mix of philosophies, some start from a training perspective and others start from a more social and behavioral perspective. Each canine professional is still an individual who brings their own perspectives and experiences to the table, too. 

It's still buyer beware no matter who you choose to help you with your dog. I don't care what organization they belong to or piece of paper they hold. It does not measure that person's compassion, intelligence, and/or character as a human being.

I understand they are working on some sort of certification program for "behavior experts" or "behavior counselors" which incorporates an understanding and use of some CM's philosophies and methods. I figure it's going to take a few years.

Specific philosophies and how someone chooses their actual handling methods using those philosophies, differ upon the personal choices and skills of an individual, too.

CM mostly sticks to what he does best, which is canine behavior studies, owner education, leadership principles, social learning, and the hands-on teaching of "dogmanship".

Linn includes some actual dog training into the mix, from what I understand.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Tina,
I love your description of your greeting ritual. Beautiful! Very calm, functional, and respectful [] I do something similar. Ixa sits while I put down my stuff/use the restroom/whatever, then I crouch down to her and greet her.

Yes, I commented on Tina's post, but it timed out. []

My dog is clearly glad to see me and does the wiggle dance. I don't have to completely ignore her because she knows my boundaries and respects them. It takes her about a minute to calm down, and then I interact with her.

I'm glad she's happy to see me! I'm also glad that she calms down very quickly, we interact, and then move on. []

Yes they do BUT as actually YOU always say, there is not only one way. Probably you should read the new rules that were updated today:
[linkay[/link]>http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=331215%C2%A0pay]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=331215 ay[/link] attention to the part that says "constant sidetracking the topic with training method debates"

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Back OT, a leadership position helps anxious dogs, too, not just dominant ones.  The only difference is how you establish yourself as a leader. And, as we have seen, everyone seems to have opinions on that.  So, my advice would be to evaluate those opinions carefully, learn how to train your dog, as well as how to deal with him on a "psychological" level, and if you get into trouble, do what Cesar says - find a professional to deal with your dog as an individual.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
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ORIGINAL: Trevell

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
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Thanks to all for the spirited discussion.  (And yes, Ixas_Girl, I've been following the thread closely.)  I certainly didn't think I would start a "holy war" with my questions but, looking back at the way I posed them and the forum itself, it's hard to see how I would not get this kind of reaction.  Still, I think I learned a lot from all you experience "dogmasters."
 
What I concluded was that: a) Ignoring was the best, and safest, method for the jumping up issue.  (I like the "stepping on the leash" idea too, but nobody is home to put a leash on him when we return, and I certainly wouldn't leave him unattended with a leash dragging.)  b) For all-round environment, including the barking issue, I need to establish a clearly dominant relationship.
 
Well, I think I know how to do both those.  I am puzzled, however, because many posters have stated how dominant Max is, how out-of-control our relationship is, how he disrespects us.  Nothing could be farther from the truth!  Max is the most submissive male dog I have ever seen, and my relationship with him is clearly as the alpha dog.  He just has the one bad habit (jumping up when excited), and doesn't (yet!) understand my command that "everything is okay" and so continues to bark his warnings with somebody at the door.  But in every other area he is very submissive.
 
Not that I'm always calm and assertive.  I wish!  Ixas_girl pointed out correctly that my wife and I are happy to see Max when we return home, and so we're sending signals we're not even aware of.
 
One last question, regarding the dominant nature CM presents to the dogs on his show.  He always reminds me of a Hollywood-type general surrounded by privates and a couple sergeants, in that he is always aloof, somewhat arrogant, sort of "lonely at the top."  Well, I'm not a professional trainer, and Max is no show dog.  What he is, however, is a loved and loving member of the family, and as such there are many times I'm going to cuddle with him, roll on the floor, scratch his belly, so forth.  I've never, ever seen CM do this.  So does this kind of action negate the dominance relationship?  I guess I have to say that, if so, oh well so be it... .
 
Thanks everyone.

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

Thanks to all for the spirited discussion.  (And yes, Ixas_Girl, I've been following the thread closely.)  I certainly didn't think I would start a "holy war" with my questions but, looking back at the way I posed them and the forum itself, it's hard to see how I would not get this kind of reaction.  Still, I think I learned a lot from all you experience "dogmasters."
 

 
I'm glad you've been reading through and you didn't start any "holy war" at all. You just got caught up in an ongoing problem in this section. []
 

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

What I concluded was that: a) Ignoring was the best, and safest, method for the jumping up issue.  (I like the "stepping on the leash" idea too, but nobody is home to put a leash on him when we return, and I certainly wouldn't leave him unattended with a leash dragging.)  b) For all-round environment, including the barking issue, I need to establish a clearly dominant relationship.
 

 
The word "dominant" is often misunderstood and has several applications. There is no equality in the dog's mind. So, you are either a leader (dominant being) or a follower (subordinant being). I usually stick to the terms "leader" and "follower". So, your goal is to be a leader.
 

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

Well, I think I know how to do both those.  I am puzzled, however, because many posters have stated how dominant Max is, how out-of-control our relationship is, how he disrespects us.  Nothing could be farther from the truth!  Max is the most submissive male dog I have ever seen, and my relationship with him is clearly as the alpha dog.  He just has the one bad habit (jumping up when excited), and doesn't (yet!) understand my command that "everything is okay" and so continues to bark his warnings with somebody at the door.  But in every other area he is very submissive.
 

 
We are not there to observe you, your dog, and your interactions with him. So we can only go by what you have told us.
 
Hands-on, eyes-on help is best. []
 
This is a young dog which is not yet an adult. As I mentioned before, this behavior may escalate into other areas if leadership is not established and the parts of his behavior which are currently out of control now, are not addressed while he is young.
 
Many owners become puzzled over their dog's behavior in a couple of areas, yet the dog is described as "sweet" and loving the rest of the time.
 

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

Not that I'm always calm and assertive.  I wish!  Ixas_girl pointed out correctly that my wife and I are happy to see Max when we return home, and so we're sending signals we're not even aware of.

One last question, regarding the dominant nature CM presents to the dogs on his show.  He always reminds me of a Hollywood-type general surrounded by privates and a couple sergeants, in that he is always aloof, somewhat arrogant, sort of "lonely at the top."  Well, I'm not a professional trainer, and Max is no show dog.  What he is, however, is a loved and loving member of the family, and as such there are many times I'm going to cuddle with him, roll on the floor, scratch his belly, so forth.  I've never, ever seen CM do this.  So does this kind of action negate the dominance relationship?  I guess I have to say that, if so, oh well so be it... .
 

 
CM recommends showing affection at the appropriate times. The rolling on the floor and cuddling is very rewarding to the humans. If you follow his basic "exercise/discipline/ and then affection", you should be okay.
 
CM's philosophies and methods are not for everyone and are not the only way. If you decide they are not in line with what is comfortable to you, we also have a clicker training section you might want to check out.
 
Good luck to you and your wonderful dog! []
 
 

How old is your dog by the way?

Just remember that Millan is mostly dealing with troubled dogs... The advise that he gives is of course applicable to all dogs, but it's especially important to follow it during this rehabilitation period when the hierarchy is being re-established.

If you have a calm well mannered dog, these rules can be relaxed... I once lived with a terrier (didn't own it), she was the most calm-submissive dog I have ever meet. She was almost spoon-fed, her owners really babied her and they were loving every bit of it! It didn't spoil the dog in a slightest - she was very low energy dog who was born to be a follower... (All she wanted to do was dose and follow us around.) There are just dogs that need a little boot camp here and there, and then there are those who need a really dominant owner who can naturally keep the rules constantly tight.

ORIGINAL: TinaK

How old is your dog by the way?

Just remember that Millan is mostly dealing with troubled dogs... The advise that he gives is of course applicable to all dogs, but it's especially important to follow it during this rehabilitation period when the hierarchy is being re-established.

If you have a calm well mannered dog, these rules can be relaxed... I once lived with a terrier (didn't own it), she was the most calm-submissive dog I have ever meet. She was almost spoon-fed, her owners really babied her and they were loving every bit of it! It didn't spoil the dog in a slightest - she was very low energy dog who was born to be a follower... (All she wanted to do was dose and follow us around.) There are just dogs that need a little boot camp here and there, and then there are those who need a really dominant owner who can naturally keep the rules constantly tight.

Great point! []

CM even mentions this in his book and on his show.

I've met quite a few dogs who were just naturally submissive, low energy, and easy going by nature.

Dogs are born with a certain level of dominance or submission in their personalities. This is pretty much just who they are. In the wild, if all dogs or wolves were born to be leaders (dominant beings) and there were no followers (subordinant beings) it would be chaos and they could not function together as a cohesive group.

I believe there is an entire pack dynamic born into every litter of pups. I would love to see if any research has ever been done to prove this.

I think the majority of dogs are born somewhere in the middle and few dogs are ultra dominant or ultra submissive by nature.

So, I guess what we humans have to do is just make sure that we have a slightly higher level of dominance and energy than the dog we choose to live with. []

ORIGINAL: TinaK
How old is your dog by the way?

Sorry, guess I forgot to mention it.  Max is fifteen months old.  More important perhaps is that we rescued him, from a life with much abuse, at age one year, just three months ago.
 
Frankly, we are thrilled by the many good habits Max has.  Let's face it, sometimes rescue dogs, especially when they are not puppies, can be extremely difficult to retrain out of a lifetime of bad habits.  Not the case with us, thankfully.  Just these two issues, is all.
 
Thanks again everybody.

Terry,

Seems like you've gotten your money's worth [] Glad to hear from you! I hope you'll stick around to compare notes from Doglandia! I find your posts very clear and and I thought your question here was direct and well articulated. It sounds like you have a lovely and rewarding relationship with Max, and after only 3 months, with his hard history. Kudos and applause to you! []

I too am impressed by the gentle tendancies of my rescue dog. She only has (ok, *we* only have) a few issues to work out, and I'm glad about how that process is building her, and me, and our relationship together. My girl's actually very submissive, rolls on her back for any "leader"-like human. Just visited my folks, and she instantly recognized them as leaders of the "den" (heh) and licked their hands whenever given the chance. She's a happy follower! She just has a few hot spots for which I'm learning how to guide her better.

I think Angelique and Tina's posts about the volume of response meeting the volume of the dog's "improprieties" are pretty right on for you. Like you said, Max is a good guy, and there are only 2 things (jumping and barking) you asked about working on. Both of those are expressions of excited energy, from, it sounds like, an adolescent dog. They just require you to decide what you want, then be clear and consistent in asking for it.

I'd love to hear Max's adoption story sometime (and to see more pictures of him!). I'm also curious about how you've structured your relationship with Max, how have you created so much success in such a short time?! And also, what in the CM philosophy interests you?

ORIGINAL: tdlabrie

ORIGINAL: TinaK
How old is your dog by the way?

Sorry, guess I forgot to mention it.  Max is fifteen months old.  More important perhaps is that we rescued him, from a life with much abuse, at age one year, just three months ago.

Frankly, we are thrilled by the many good habits Max has.  Let's face it, sometimes rescue dogs, especially when they are not puppies, can be extremely difficult to retrain out of a lifetime of bad habits.  Not the case with us, thankfully.  Just these two issues, is all.

Thanks again everybody.

You're very welcome, Terry.  Just remember, ignorance is NOT bliss.  Check out all the other parts of the forum, too.  janet_rose is our "link queen" - the equivalent of espencer with the CM videos.  And, there are some very experienced people here.  PACLeader has a Master's in Animal Behavior, mudpuppy is an authority on Great Danes, and Callie is our holistic helper!  There are many more - welcome and enjoy. []