A Problem with the I Collar

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Those are IMPO the best collars...period!

What is it about these collars that works so well? I haven't tried one.

ORIGINAL: DPU

No those are not the ones commonly used in vet offices.  I have one of those in leather/snake and more of a flat but still a choker.  And yes it slips and chokes.  I expect those would work but have to be sized specifically to the dog so they are snug on the dog unless I am wrong.  The dog's neck shape would be the determining factor.  If you are saying the collar will always stay high on the neck, below the ears without being attached to a leash or when attached, the leash is loose, then I will get because it accomplishes the same thing and has to be a lot cheaper.  Are you sure it stays high with nothing working against it but gravity.  Are you sure, are you sure?

The answer to that is simple. Of corse not, lets not be silly. Just watch any dog show...thin little show choke held high upon the neck with...just the perfect amount of pressure. It takes practice, but once mastered...it works perfect.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

Those are IMPO the best collars...period!

What is it about these collars that works so well? I haven't tried one.

Reason # 1.Their very light weight.

Are you sure, are you sure?

I don't think I stuttered.  Was that intended to be insulting?
 
A flat slip collar you mention does not have the same action as these.  The ones I posted in particular come in 10 different lengths, but I have access to others which would double the variables in lengths.  Therefore accommodating more dog necks than S/M/L as described by the Illusion collar - which, by your post, is adjustable in it's straps, but by illustration, photograph, and links provided ([linkhttp://cesarmillan.securesites.net/index.php?cPath=76]http://cesarmillan.securesites.net/index.php?cPath=76[/link]), is not adjustable in slip collar length/size.
 
Ixas, if you're using a slip collar that can slide down to the dog's shoulders, then you have a slip collar that is too big if it is intended to be used to control pulling, or at minimum apply a correction.  A slip collar that big is generally used as a safety for a prong collar and is deliberately larger so as not to impede the action of the prong, but to maintain leash connection to the dog should a prong become disconnected.

miranadobe,

Oh no, not intended to be insulting.  I was excitement at the possibility I could get something that functions like the Illusion collar but much more cheaper so I can get a supply.  I was excited when the collar fit on the Great Dane, but that dog does not need it.  The straps on the Illusion allow for adjustments.  I don't know if the slip collar is the same size on SML collars.  The collars are in the garage so I will check in the morning.

Forgive me for not knowing what a slip collar is.  I have never seen the word slip collar in all the posting that I have read on this forum.  Thank you.

Understood and accepted.
These particular slip collars are the ones I choose because they are neither riveted nor stitched closed at the ends near the rings - which is a stress point that is often ruptured with repeated use/washings, etc.  The nylon material (snag resistant) and shape of the collar (tubular) allow for better action; as well the construction, having been woven back into itself, upholds the strength of the collar itself better than most others I've used and seen.  As mentioned, the lightweight material is a factor.  All at a price of $2.99. These particular collars are more difficult to find since the original design has been copied to lesser quality by other manufacturers (at oddly higher prices.)  Just google "Nylon Ultra Braid Choke" to find them.

ORIGINAL: miranadobe
Ixas, if you're using a slip collar that can slide down to the dog's shoulders, then you have a slip collar that is too big if it is intended to be used to control pulling, or at minimum apply a correction.

Hmmm, then maybe this is a good example of why the illusion collar *is* good for newbies! [8D]

Everything I've read says the choke collar should be 2" bigger than the dog's neck measurement, which mine is. With the prong, it *is* snug at the top of her neck, and if I took out another link it *would* be too tight. These collars still slip down. [>:]

I've also noticed on Millan's show, that the choke collars are quite a bit longer than the dogs neck measurement - something like 4 or more inches extra, reaching all the way up to the hand holding the leash.

I wonder what I am missing here!

Okay, here's just me going off on a parallel tangent in regards to tools and the skill level of the erson (instructor) teaching the handler, and their instruction ability regarding proper use. [8D]

Those of us who have worked with horses understand that there is a certain "feel" in using the reins, bit, and mouth contact with a horse, not to mention everything else we communicate by balance, leg, cues, and other forms of communication. IMO, it is something which must be taught in person when possible so that the student has an experienced mentor to help them gain the correct feel.

I think keeping a nylon slip collar up on the neck vs gravity, combined with the proper touch... is something a more skilled handler may do quite naturally, yet a student may still be trying to gain the perfect touch with the tool at hand.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

I think keeping a nylon slip collar up on the neck vs gravity, combined with the proper touch... is something a more skilled handler may do quite naturally, yet a student may still be trying to gain the perfect touch with the tool at hand.

That's precisely it. Like most tools one must be taught the right way to use them. The I-collar simplifies this, making it a lot easier for beginers.

ORIGINAL: Angelique

Okay, here's just me going off on a parallel tangent in regards to tools and the skill level of the erson (instuctor) teaching the handler, and their instruction ability regarding proper use. [8D]

Those of us who have worked with horses understand that there is a certain "feel" in using the reins, bit, and mouth contact with a horse, not to mention everything else we communicate by balance, leg, cues, and other forms of communication. IMO, it is something which must be taught in person when possible so that the student has an experienced mentor to help them gain the correct feel.

I think keeping a nylon slip collar up on the neck vs gravity, combined with the proper touch... is something a more skilled handler may do quite naturally, yet a student may still be trying to gain the perfect touch with the tool at hand.

Glad you mentioned the horse thing.  It's why most school horses have very hard mouths - from all the newbies yanking on them. []  Even with a good teacher, it takes time to learn the balance and feel.
Inexperienced riders use their hands to balance, which is not correct.  It's why, most times, the school horses wear the lightest bits possible.  Many riders start on snaffle bits, not curbs, spades, twisted wire bits, or double bridles.   An experienced rider has still, "elastic" hands, and will not damage the horse's mouth, no matter how severe the bit is.  A new rider may damage the horse in a mullen mouth snaffle.  If you transfer the concept to dogs, someone who hasn't much finesse yet will struggle with a slip collar, and be unable to keep it in position or deliver the pop correctly, but someone who has handled dogs for years may be able to "pop" the leash by making just a quick jingle.  So, if you are very adept, handle the dog in a slip or Illusion if you must (although IME there are always some people who think that they are more adept than they are, both on horseback and while handling dogs).  If not, opt for a less intrusive device, like an Easy Walk Harness, until your timing and knowledge catch up. [sm=2cents.gif]

ORIGINAL: Angelique
I think keeping a nylon slip collar up on the neck vs gravity, combined with the proper touch... is something a more skilled handler may do quite naturally, yet a student may still be trying to gain the perfect touch with the tool at hand.

Great points!

That's why I ended up retiring all my "corrective" collars, and just use the flat one, focusing on my touch.

So many obedience 1 instructors have their students run out and get head halters, prongs or chokes because the instructor wants a quick fix to the leaping pooches in class. Newbies aren't taught their use properly, if at all. (I've experienced this myself, and read about it a lot on discussion lists.)

I'm wondering if it would be better for all the prong hawking instructors (so-called positive ones included) to push the illusion instead - it's more fool(idiot)proof, no?! I like the idea of harnesses, too.

ORIGINAL: Angelique
IMO, it is something which must be taught in person when possible so that the student has an experienced mentor to help them gain the correct feel.

I think keeping a nylon slip collar up on the neck vs gravity, combined with the proper touch... is something a more skilled handler may do quite naturally, yet a student may still be trying to gain the perfect touch with the tool at hand.

I think, I wouldn't be the only owner to notice that many obedience instructors today completely slip through that part... touch-feel-pressure-body. In my opinion, this is excluded from today's training agenda, an that's a shame.

ORIGINAL: TinaK

ORIGINAL: Angelique
IMO, it is something which must be taught in person when possible so that the student has an experienced mentor to help them gain the correct feel.

I think keeping a nylon slip collar up on the neck vs gravity, combined with the proper touch... is something a more skilled handler may do quite naturally, yet a student may still be trying to gain the perfect touch with the tool at hand.

I think, I wouldn't be the only owner to notice that many obedience instructors today completely slip through that part... touch-feel-pressure-body. In my opinion, this is excluded from today's training agenda, an that's a shame.

In the horse world, you have horse trainers and riding instructors. I think we sell our dogs short when ignoring the teaching and mentoring of the handler in order to learn their part in the interaction with their dog.

Spiritdogs is very accurate in her comments about new students using the bit and reins for balance instead of communication, containment, and control (when need be). I personally feel handling dogs is not very different.

Suzanne Clothier is an expert with both dogs and horses. I consider her light touch with the collar and leash to communicate with her dogs to be spot on in a lot of what she describes.

She also considers the relationship between the dog and human handler as the primary "tool", and external equipment only a "crutch" or "bandaid" until the handler gains the feel and connection in their communication with the dog on a less safety-first, management level.

The I-collar seems to be a very useful tool for a novice handler to use until they gain a more natural feel and communication with the dog, IMO.

Spiritdogs is very accurate in her comments about new students using the bit and reins for balance instead of communication, containment, and control (when need be). I personally feel handling dogs is not very different.

Suzanne Clothier is an expert with both dogs and horses. I consider her light touch with the collar and leash to communicate with her dogs to be spot on in a lot of what she describes.

She also considers the relationship between the dog and human handler as the primary "tool", and external equipment only a "crutch" or "bandaid" until the handler gains the feel and connection in their communication with the dog on a less safety-first, management level.

The I-collar seems to be a very useful tool for a novice handler to use until they gain a more natural feel and communication with the dog, IMO.

You see, we are not so far apart in our philosophies sometimes.  The exception is that positive trainers might opt for the device that students find most foolproof, but doesn't have the choke action that the Illusion has.  So, your student might have the Illusion, but mine might use the Easy Walk.  Both of us would certainly be emphasizing light hands, and use of appropriate cues.  Clicker trainers have a somewhat different take on some aspects of this, since the training is done largely hands off.  But, once the student clips the leash on to take Fido for a walk, they certainly need an assist while they get the training completed.  We just differ on what the assistive device should be. 
I think you learn early on, when riding, that you can't use your hands for balance very long.  If you are jumping a four foot fence hanging on the horse's mouth, it could spell disaster.  So, you are taught, when first jumping small fences, to put your hands up the horse's neck and grab the mane for stability.  Then, you don't impede the horse's jump, or feel you have no control.  Is it a crutch?  Of course.  Later, you simply use your hands correctly by instinct and feel.

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

Mira, My supplier has stopped making these collars and I'm on a search to find them again. where may I ask are you finding yours?