CM and NILIF

ORIGINAL: Mastiff

I wonder why the focus is on calm?

Because excited does not equal happy.  And, an excited dog will generally not focus on you or be in the right state of mind to learn.

I know if Kato is calm, he is much more apt to behave, learn and train much easier than if I get him all excited first and then expect him to obey.

I'd rather deal with a calm person than an overly excited annoying person!  It's all a state of mind.

Very good point. Some folks unfortunately equate excited, anticipatory, and drivey with "happy". Excited is simply excited. Many people end up with aggressive and/or out of control dogs, too.

There is also a difference in a bit of playfullness, and drivey excitement.

To me, animals don't waste energy. If they are up and drivey, they are going to do something with that energy level. And, they will vent it inappropriately when their basic physical requirements are not being met in an attempt to find balance. A racehorse might weave and chew in his stall when denied pasture and open spaces to run. A dog may become aggressive. They use their excitement and drive to perform a function which requires excitement and drive. If there is something they associate with a drivey activity, the mere sight, smell, or sound of the associated object will "get them going" = classical conditioning. This is the anticipation and association phase. A harness which is "used on the job" and only on the job, will automatically start putting a dog in excited, drivey, anticipatory mode.

A horse knows when a certain tack gets brought out, what the activity will likely be. Most horse trainers who do a variety of different activities and ride both english and western, understand this.

This is one reason I would not ever recommend clicker training to get a dog to calm down. I've never seen click = calm when used directly to achieve one through the other. You might get a controlled behavior, but the anticipation is still there. Although, I am all for using clickers during an agility session when drivey and excited is what you want. It will be interesting to see how Emma justifies the association of that one in her book.

On topic:

Even William Koehler had his own version of NILIF, and that was fifty years ago. I think it is just common sense to not allow a dog to be pushy, dominant, demanding, and running over the top of you rather than earn their privledges and food by showing some manners. One of the few areas where Koehler uses a reward following a behavior.

NILIF means wait and earn it, but it does not say wait until you are completely calm. The anticipation is still there.

Espencer, you make also make great points on this. []

It will be interesting to see how Emma justifies the association of that one in her book.

 
I think the title is perhaps a little misleading, or maybe just open to interpretation. It's not like she shows you literally how to use the clicker to bring the dog from an excited state of mind to a calm one. But she does use the clicker to reward the dog for behavior that is incompatible with, or opposite to, reactivity. For example, one exercise is designed to deal with dogs who tense up and get reactive when they feel the leash tighten on their neck. She allows the dog to walk to the end of the leash, and as soon as it tightens she clicks & rewards. The idea is to reinforce a feeling that "leash on neck = positive things", and thus avoid having the dog get fearful or tense when it happens.
 
Another example is dogs who get worked up when they see another dog. She clicks for moments when the dog looks at her instead of focusing on the other dog in the distance. By using the clicker, she captures that exact moment when they stop focusing on the strange dog and turn towards her, even for only a second. Then build it from there.
 
So no, I don't suppose the clicker "calms dogs down" as you mentioned, but you can use it to mark and reward the dog for NOT getting reactive.

I don't think it is contradictory for one to use NILIF to establish calm.  You simply start with what the dog gives you, but then increase the criteria.  

This is one reason I would not ever recommend clicker training to get a dog to calm down. I've never seen click = calm when used directly to achieve one through the other. You might get a controlled behavior, but the anticipation is still there. Although, I am all for using clickers during an agility session when drivey and excited is what you want. It will be interesting to see how Emma justifies the association of that one in her book.

As I said in another post, one of the reasons I've stopped using a clicker is because just at a sight of it my dog went crazy anticipating the treats. I interpreted it as happiness (as well as other dog owners at obedience school!). The more I learned abut his body language, the more I started to question that - it seemed to be a fixation, or obsessiveness. I tired to ignore him and walked around as if nothing was going to happen - just me grabbing the clicker out of the cupboard. I also tried to sneak out and quietly grab it, he'd hear the door squeak and rase over like a torpedo. I started leaving a clicker at random places... constantly trying to outwit him. Somebody recommended that you can always keep a clicker on you, but I can't see that happening.
I started using a short "Yes." as a marker - it can come out of nowhere...
Saying that, I taught my dog to STAY using a clicker. A long DOWN stay would actually relax him. He'd start to space out and get sleepy while laying down. I used DOWN STAY to calm him down after we walked, before leaving him alone in the house.

From browsing other forums, I found a few folks who are not convinced that NILIF helps. Maybe, the reason they haven't had success with it is because they are rewarding just the action asked to obey, not the state of mind?

I'm glad to see that a thread has been opened up in another area of the board for those who wish to discuss Emma, her book, and her methods. []

Who's Emma???

I think it's Emma Parsons who wrote "Click to calm".
http://www.amazon.com/Click-Calm-Healing-Aggressive-Clicker/dp/1890948209

Haven't read that myself.

ORIGINAL: TinaK

I think it's Emma Parsons who wrote "Click to calm".
[linkhttp://www.amazon.com/Click-Calm-Healing-Aggressive-Clicker/dp/1890948209]http://www.amazon.com/Click-Calm-Healing-Aggressive-Clicker/dp/1890948209[/link]

Haven't read that myself.

 
The thread which has been opened for those who wish to discuss her book and beliefs is titled "Click to Calm", and is located in the training forum under the "Everything Else" area.