Macho Trainers

Yes, but the same circumstances that caused the behavior in the first place has to exist in the dog's environment for the aggression to come back.

Not exactly, but you have the right idea.  A set of circumstances that have the equivalent effect of those triggers, and pushing him over his "bite threshold", would have to exist.  But, it isn't always easy to predict what that set of circumstances will be.  The object of managing any aggressive dog is to avoid the introduction of sufficient triggers, and concomitantly increasing the threshold above which the dog would feel he had to react (which is the behavior modification and training component).

Are you saying that the dog needs are of equal importance and for example if the dog did not get sufficient exercise the aggressive behavior would surface?

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

A-dog, the last part of your post I can agree with.... PTS is indeed a euphimism, I did not dispute that.  I was suggesting that perhaps "correcting" was also a euphimism for the correct term and that you were guilty of the thing you accused me of.  In any case that's OT and I'm saying no more on it.

Sorry but I don't agree, correcting a dog (with a correction that is both fair and understood by the dog) for doing the wrong thing is a natural thing to dogs. Punishing a dog (to me) means...improper and unfair corrections. From what I've seen...most people (including some trainers) are clueless as to what a proper and fair correction is, let a lone how to apply one.

As to the first part of your post:  ALL animals possess the capacity for aggression and ALL animals have a limit beyond which that aggression will manifest itself.  "Rehabbing" can certainly improve the situation and definately help it to be managed so that the risk that the aggression will manifest in future is greatly minimised.  But you cannot make it go away completely.  If you choose to believe that is my opinion rather than fact, that's your prerogative, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Yes...we will have to disagree. I don't know how many rescues with different types of aggression you've worked with, but...and I'm going to also answer a question by DPU here. I have never met a dog I *thought* wanted to be out of balance with it's true nature. And while a dogs nature is to have reasonable aggression towards those below him/her and reasonable fear of those below. The key word here being reasonable. That's a HUGE difference than unreasonable aggression...which! is almost always created by...humans. So...give a dog the live they deserve and fulfill their needs...and yes...IMPO based on true life experiences, you  can completely get rid of unreasonable aggression. The fact that you and some others haven't done or seen it...doesn't change the fact...it can be done. Again...the key here is...fulfillment of the dogs needs.
 

I'd ask though - what would happen if, for example, after Cesar Millan had successfully helped someone rehab a seriously aggressive dog, what would happen if they were to relapse back to their old ways - humanising the dog, failing to give it structure and adequate exercise etc etc etc?  Do you not think that the dog's behaviour would also relapse?  Don't answer that - I think its going OT and needs its own thread.

Yes but you asked, so I will answer. That would mean they weren't fulfilling the dogs needs. And not only a rehabed dog will respond negatively to this, but it's what causes dogs to become that way to begin with.

Again with reference to the first part of your post - was that degree of sarcasm and sneering dismissiveness really necessary?  If you don't want to discuss civilly, please don't discuss at all.

Right back at ya.[]

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog
...and I'm going to also answer a question by DPU here. I have never met a dog I *thought* wanted to be out of balance with it's true nature. And while a dogs nature is to have reasonable aggression towards those below him/her and reasonable fear of those below. The key word here being reasonable. That's a HUGE difference than unreasonable aggression...which! is almost always created by...humans. So...give a dog the live they deserve and fulfill their needs...and yes...IMPO based on true life experiences, you  can completely get rid of unreasonable aggression. The fact that you and some others haven't done or seen it...doesn't change the fact...it can be done. Again...the key here is...fulfillment of the dogs needs.

 
I believe that now the dog's basic needs are met, and as I said defined by the dog,  The dog has high spirits, eats slowly, allows other dogs to eat our of her dish, plays nice, hops, skips, and jumps, etc.  It appears now the dog is low ranking to the other females in the pack.  Was her original aggression reasonable or unreasonable. Essie is starting Heartworm treatment tomorrow and the need to exercise will be taken away from her for two months.  I will be observing her closely during this time to note any new behavior (deprivation increases learning) and see whether she becomes aggressive.  Any predictions on the dog's behavior during this time is more than welcomed.

quote:

I'd ask though - what would happen if, for example, after Cesar Millan had successfully helped someone rehab a seriously aggressive dog, what would happen if they were to relapse back to their old ways - humanising the dog, failing to give it structure and adequate exercise etc etc etc? Do you not think that the dog's behaviour would also relapse? Don't answer that - I think its going OT and needs its own thread.

Yes but you asked, so I will answer. That would mean they weren't fulfilling the dogs needs. And not only a rehabed dog will respond negatively to this, but it's what causes dogs to become that way to begin with.

 
Broadly, yes I would agree with that.... not every single case, but many.  And it seems that is one area where we do agree - that the capacity for aggression itself cannot be gotten rid of.  Fulfilling the dog's needs would, in my book, come under proper management of the dog.  Fail to keep up with the programme and the risk is very real....  Steering neatly back to the topic, I feel that a great many owners struggle to emulate and maintain the practises put in lace by "macho trainers" and therefore there is a real danger that the aggression will manifest again.... those are just my thoughts.   

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: diane303

Do I sense aggression brewing here? [8|] ...but, Anne, didn't you kind of figure that this would happen sooner or later?

Well, I had hoped not.  I had too much faith, apparently. [sm=crazy.gif] 
It seems we have lost the ability to discuss controversial subjects without getting personal.   

Wow we had that ability once?  When?  Did I miss it?  Was it before I rejoined the board?!!

Maybe.  But, there are ex-idoggers still doing it on another board.  They left here quite a while ago - more than a year or two, I guess.  We certainly disagreed, sometimes vehemently, but we didn't feel the need to be so sneeringly dismissive, as you put it.  There were not as many "macho trainers" here then either.  That happened when idog was sold to dog.com and the public started coming here in droves.  We did have some sport dog people who used e-collars (Charlie was one, he once made a nice post on how to correctly use one - even those of us who don't use those collars used to refer people who wanted to use them to his post so they wouldn't make the common mistakes.)

Steering neatly back to the topic, I feel that a great many owners struggle to emulate and maintain the practises put in lace by "macho trainers" and therefore there is a real danger that the aggression will manifest again.... those are just my thoughts.

This is where a lot of our referrals come from.  People who did that, and now the dog is escalating.  Most of the time, we find that  had they come to us in the first place, a lot of this could have been avoided. [&o]  Sometimes, it's a vet who has been asked to put the dog to sleep that makes the referral.  []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: diane303

Do I sense aggression brewing here? [8|] ...but, Anne, didn't you kind of figure that this would happen sooner or later?

Well, I had hoped not.  I had too much faith, apparently. [sm=crazy.gif] 
It seems we have lost the ability to discuss controversial subjects without getting personal.   

Wow we had that ability once?  When?  Did I miss it?  Was it before I rejoined the board?!!

Maybe.  But, there are ex-idoggers still doing it on another board.  They left here quite a while ago - more than a year or two, I guess.  We certainly disagreed, sometimes vehemently, but we didn't feel the need to be so sneeringly dismissive, as you put it.  There were not as many "macho trainers" here then either.  That happened when idog was sold to dog.com and the public started coming here in droves.  We did have some sport dog people who used e-collars (Charlie was one, he once made a nice post on how to correctly use one - even those of us who don't use those collars used to refer people who wanted to use them to his post so they wouldn't make the common mistakes.)

God! You are so transparent! Now your labling some people here as "macho trainers". For someone with a PHD in HP your a piece of work. You stated earlier that your post had nothing to do with..."any person, living or dead." But your clearly showing your hand in this post. And what? That's...not insulting.

I'm sorry, other than refering to you as a positive reward only trainer (that is your belief...right? Or actually I'm not sure...you...do...some...kind of correction or something) or clicker trainer (which is your thing...right?). What have *I* labled you as? But I guess if this is where you want this thread to go, should your crowd be called  the *it's all about my human feelings...trainers*?

Think I need a break from here, back into the light I go.
To the "macho trainers" I say this, dogs need you...and more people like you. Those of you here know who I'm speaking too. Until another time.

I remember when these "heated debates" were legitimately interesting heated debates! With fully formed opinions on either side, and respectful treatment of debate partners!

...Si, se puede!

At least you have that fond memory.... some of us are not so fortunate!
 
 

Funny thing about nostolgia as a sentimental yearning for the happiness of a former place or time.  You recall more of the good than evil.  The debates of current time did move me to explore training methods of both extremist views and that is a good thing. 

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

...Si, se puede!

Haha that was funny, i wonder if i was the only one who got it, not because its spanish but because that phrase has some history []

Yes, we can!  Not sure of its relevance in the post. 
 

I'm sure a lot of people know who Cesar Chavez is...

As for the relevance of the slogan... Cesar Chavez had the (wonderful, brilliant) audacity to demand better. Honestly, I think the quality of discussion here could be really much better. I think that there are two problems that keep the quality of debate very low:

1. A couple of people consistently make every thread about them, and cannot discuss any topic as a topic and not as a stage from which to launch personal attacks.

2. Our culture is increasingly invested in a relatavistic world view. This stifles our ability (as a culture of individuals) to debate any topic, because anyone bringing in what we used to consider "facts" or "data" or "empirical observation" is mis-labeled an ideologue, or an "extremist."

I have seen this forum operate without these two specific problems in the not-too-distant past, and I contribute to other forums that are not plagued by emotionalism and relatavism.

So all I can do is embrace the fantastic optimism of Chavez: Si, se puede!