Training a reliable stop or recall

Thanks to all who have replied. Excellent feedback! Kim, perhaps I use a "marker" and didn't realize it. When a dog is working, I always note good work with a quick verbal "good", or "yes". That is another thing that new students forget, they forget to praise their dog! We laugh about it, but the owners are so engrossed with the stock that they forget to pay attention to what good things their dog is doing. Yes, as others have stated, more exposure to stock would really help. Those folks that get a few ducks or sheep of their own make much better progress.

Liesje, so true about the drive. I find that most herding dogs have it, some just need more time, while others are gung ho from the start. Both types of dogs are very discouraging to their owners. The strong dogs scare the owner, who thinks that their dog is too out of control, those with uninterested dogs at the beginning think their dog has no herding instinct. It all takes time and exposure. When you've been doing it for awhile, some things are second nature. Like watching the stock, AND the dog. Knowing what the dog is doing by what the stock is doing, praising a good effort even though things may be a little wild. There is a lot for the owners to learn, not just the dog! If somebody has never been around sheep, just being in the pen with them can be scary, and how do you think their dog reacts to that! LOL. Herding is a sport where you can't control everything, much like riding a cutting horse. The livestock are thinking individuals and their agenda may be different then what you had in mind. A normally calm, easygoing ewe may suddenly break away at breakneck speed, so this may be perfect to turn on a disinterested dog, or a good time to see if a dog wants to get around the ewe and put her back with the flock, or if the dog just wants to give chase and we have to body block and correct. Now imagine yourself as a newbie who just sees a WRECK!, caused by your dog! All they want to do is stop their dog, even if things are actually going pretty good and I'm busy trying to settle things down and praise the dog for a good effort.

debbieStx

Liesje, so true about the drive. I find that most herding dogs have it, some just need more time, while others are gung ho from the start. Both types of dogs are very discouraging to their owners. The strong dogs scare the owner, who thinks that their dog is too out of control, those with uninterested dogs at the beginning think their dog has no herding instinct. It all takes time and exposure. When you've been doing it for awhile, some things are second nature. Like watching the stock, AND the dog. Knowing what the dog is doing by what the stock is doing, praising a good effort even though things may be a little wild. There is a lot for the owners to learn, not just the dog! If somebody has never been around sheep, just being in the pen with them can be scary, and how do you think their dog reacts to that! LOL. Herding is a sport where you can't control everything, much like riding a cutting horse. The livestock are thinking individuals and their agenda may be different then what you had in mind. A normally calm, easygoing ewe may suddenly break away at breakneck speed, so this may be perfect to turn on a disinterested dog, or a good time to see if a dog wants to get around the ewe and put her back with the flock, or if the dog just wants to give chase and we have to body block and correct. Now imagine yourself as a newbie who just sees a WRECK!, caused by your dog! All they want to do is stop their dog, even if things are actually going pretty good and I'm busy trying to settle things down and praise the dog for a good effort.

 

Well my thing is tracking, obedeince, rally and agility.. but i train my dogs to "work in drive". I have difficulty using this term because so many abuse it, or run around offering seminairs on it without two many clues. Many obedience and rally folk are great at teaching dogs out of drive and they do a great job, but it is about control for them, and often aroused dogs scare the hell out of them. Trying to get an obedience person to do tracking  takes a lot of teaching to let go and have a different view of dog behaviour. An example, my boy Sam, rehomed mini poodle, now four and a Dual Ch (T) and CD comes out of the car and does amazing jumps. I let him and to be honest quietly encourage him. I need and want that drive and energy and it is way down my list of behaviours that i would care to change. My girl Luci competes in Obedience and when she is own she is one of the fastest dogs around. Yep i do know that it is about accuracy, but she does it with a huge grin, in  a prance and at a fast rate of knots.

I grew up in the land of sheep, NZ. I can not understand why any one would want to own a true working herding dog in town. The eye dogs need to herd all the time, and the heading dogs are very strong willed. As for huntaways well.. see we talk about function not breed when talking about herding. It is all about drive and biddability, True herding dogs look nothing like the border collies or whatever that prance around the show ring.

poodleOwned

I have difficulty using this term because so many abuse it, or run around offering seminairs on it without two many clues. Many obedience and rally folk are great at teaching dogs out of drive and they do a great job, but it is about control for them, and often aroused dogs scare the hell out of them.

 

LOL so true!  Some of the examples I've seen of dogs "in drive" are more blah than what my dogs do kicking about on their dog beds while dreaming in their sleep!

Then, there is the subtlety of *capping* drive so that it's actually useful.  A dog can have all the drive in the world but if it can't be capped and channeled, the dog is just a lunatic and cannot think, thus isn't going to work reliably.

So true about the drive scaring your average owner, and the conformation BC often lacks the "sparkle" that a true herding dog has. They have a dull look in their eyes, not the devil may care, let's do SOMETHING look that I'm used to seeing. My Boo dog is always looking for ways to have fun. He'll bring you anything that he thinks a human can throw. He's been known to pull up weeds and bring them to you. If he didn't have so much stimulation, I'm afraid he could have become a BC with OCD, chasing shadows. Boo looks to be nearly out of control, but when he goes to stock he is all business. Debbie

Yes indeed! Put all that wonderful drive and energy into something useful. There is nothing more delightful then the happy face of a dog who is tired from doing something they love. A good friend of mine talked one of her students into letting her old dog (an Aussie I think) work the sheep. My friend said she had tears in her eyes as she watched this old dog "working". He was SO happy!! One item to check off on a dog's bucket list!

I know I'm coming in late on this, but I agree with the poster who said that obedience people tend to train in controlled environments. It's a lot different getting a dog to do a down/stay next to a bunch of other boring dogs in an auditorium or arena than on the sidelines when other dogs might be herding sheep right in front of them. The key to a really good recall is to reinforce the bloody blue blazes out of it initially - AND the very first time the dog hears his recall word or whistle, he should be right in front of his handler in a totally boring environment, but getting a mouthful of beef, chicken, tripe, liver, cheese, etc. Thereafter, for a long time, the dog should just hear the signal and get reinforced (people start using the whistle too soon and let the dog have freedom too soon, thus it doesn't become an automatic response as it would if the conditioning lasted longer). The first time I set eyes on a puppy or a dog that I am planning to own, I have the whistle and the goody bag - the first thing they associate ME with is good stuff falling from the sky lol. Believe it or not, that very first exposure to a signal is really important and useful.

For me, obedience in a working scenario is more about channeling drive, not just proofing with food and slowly building the distraction.  For a working dog, we think of the environment totally differently, it's not a distraction but something the dog works in harmony with, learning to cap and channel their drive into the work.  The dogs are exposed to their working environment right away, sometimes 6 or 7 weeks old.  The working dog is bred to do these tasks, like the OP was saying often there really *isn't* a problem but the owner is thinking in terms of traditional obedience and not just allowing the dog to work and learn using their genetics. 

In Schutzhund, the call out of the blind is a good example.  The dog never *really* wants to go back to the handler as its first choice and is never going to choose liver treats over re-engaging the helper, but the dog learns that the call-out leads to the escape bite, and the escape bite is often the most desirable part of the test for the dog (prey driven, not as confrontational as the other bites and guarding).  Training the call-out from a purely obedience perspective often results in a struggle and conflict between the handler and dog, when protection work should be anything but, it should be *team*work between handler and dog.

Liesje

For me, obedience in a working scenario is more about channeling drive, not just proofing with food

 

Which is very similar to retriever training.  The dog learns that in order to continue getting to retrieve birds that are shot or thrown, he must come back to the handler.  The drive to retrieve has to be strong but most good retrievers will gladly return so they will be sent again.  For pet dogs, the food proofing with distractions is great.  Even in flyball, I was sort of surprised (naive me, at that time) at the number of people who had to entice their dogs to return with food.  Our Labs came racing back so they could go again.