Royce will NOT trade

Liesje

Personally, I cannot own a dog that I am not able to "handle", which includes removing objects from the dog's mouth whether he is willing or trained to give them, and regularly examining the dog's mouth.

And that's perfectly acceptable, as long as you are clear on your own standards of what you are willing to accept.  However, many many adolescent and adult shelter and rescue dogs come with "baggage" - either genetic or learned - that needs to be addressed differently than you would when starting with an 8 week pup. I do a ton of things differently with pups that I am raising myself, than I do with older fosters or client dogs that have already developed problems. These dogs - with the baggage - need homes too, and need guidance and understanding so that they can learn to have their mouths opened, that things are okay to take from them, etc. It's hard to understand sometimes I know, but when working with true puppy mill dogs or dogs who spent time as strays - some "rules" in their world are just different. They aren't naive (strays and mill dogs learn a LOT about valued items at a very young age. They have to, to survive).  I understand that some are not willing or able to work these through with dogs, however the only alternative to working through it with them is to kill them all. So.....

Liesje

I think Jackie is correct, the more force you need to use, the more it will continue to take

This applies to just about any force-based approach, really. And you have hit the nail on the head - the "force" used, in order for it to work, has to be applied hard enough the first time in order for it to matter. The problem is that some people start out waaaay too soft, and the other problem is that sometimes that level of force that would be "required" is borderline abusive.  And personally, I am not willing to use that type of force when there are other ways that work. I like Jackie's point that we have the bigger brain, and we often tout that a lot, so sometimes it behooves us to actually take a moment to use that brain, rather than act "animalistic" in our approaches (I hate to put it like that, because animals are often far more fair to each other than we are to them).

Another thing to consider.... OK in Schutzhund during protection the dog must "out" the helper/sleeve several times.  I know this is different than giving up a toy or food, but may be relevant to this discussion....now a lot of people assume that because we are doing "protection" work and the dog is working in a high state of drive/arousal based on both defense aggression and prey aggression the only way to achieve a clean out is with force, generally screaming the command and then frying the dog with an e-collar or going to town on the prong collar.  This is absolutely not true.  What is true is that many times a dog refusing to out is not because the dog is "stubborn" or unwilling to obey the handler, but because there is other conflict between the dog and handler.  Sometimes the improper use of force in the first place creates that conflict and makes the out command something that the dog avoids.  Often there is stuff that happens after the out and before the dog goes back into whatever protection behavior is next that involves a lot of conflict.  Even though the dog is working through various types of aggression and drive, a good dog is still very much sensitive to the overall tone of the handler.  Too much frustration, anger, emotions, etc from the handler do very much affect the dog regardless of whether we are asking for a sit in a vacuum or an out during protection.  While Schutzhund protection might only represent an extreme example, I think the same can definitely be true of training a pet dog, especially a dog with unknown background that may have some baggage as far as how it was raised or previously trained (by the way this post is not directed at the OP, not saying she did anything wrong with Royce in particular).  I think many times when we struggle with our dogs it is not because our dog is stubborn or guardy or aggressive but because we haven't made ourselves clear or there is some communication break-down between dog and handler because our emotions are getting in the way.  Also the outing behavior usually involves a transition in drives, whether this is outing in protection or outing a tug rope or a high value treat.  Some dogs naturally do this better than others, the ones that don't do it fast right away are not bad or demonstrating a refusal, but more than other dogs they need crystal clear communication of what is acceptable and what is not, whatever method is used. 

Because outing is important to me both as a general safety issue and because I do various forms of protection work, it is one behavior that I almost always reward no matter how old the dog is and how much they've been proofed.  Often I will deviate from what I intended to do next in order to make sure the dog knows they did the right thing and I am happy for it.  At home, if Pan grabs something he can't have and he outs it the second I ask him to, he gets a party.  On the SchH field if the dog outs clean we might instantly reward with a back-up bite even if we originally intended to continue with the rest of the protection routine.

Kim_MacMillan

Liesje

Personally, I cannot own a dog that I am not able to "handle", which includes removing objects from the dog's mouth whether he is willing or trained to give them, and regularly examining the dog's mouth.

And that's perfectly acceptable, as long as you are clear on your own standards of what you are willing to accept.  However, many many adolescent and adult shelter and rescue dogs come with "baggage" - either genetic or learned - that needs to be addressed differently than you would when starting with an 8 week pup.

So true, and I commend those who work with these dogs (and owners....so often the dog is fine and the owner has created so many problems....).  Coke, our rescue dog, can be super-high-value food guardy around other dogs, luckily never with me though.  This is easily managed by not giving him a stuffed kong or marrow bone unless he's confined and other dogs can't pester him.  I can walk up and take what he has at any time.  I'm not sure what I would do with a dog that would bite me :( 

Do you find that for many dogs they improve when the owners work on trust and bonding in general rather than focusing on the outing/guarding issue?  This is one area where I vehemently disagree with what Cesar Millan is doing on TV.  If he has a guardy dog I see him correct that dog until it finally shuts down and then he just keeps pushing their buttons and trying to take their stuff.  Maybe the issue is not so much the guarding behaviors, but the lack of trust and respect between dog and owner in general?  I'm just thinking if I had a dog that growled at me, what would I do first, would I right away try to convince the dog to give up things whether by trade or by force, or would I back off and focus more on bonding with the dog so the dog respects me, use strict NILIF so that the dog does not have the chance to guard and also learns that resources are mine and are always provided so they don't need to be fought over....

Liesje

Do you find that for many dogs they improve when the owners work on trust and bonding in general rather than focusing on the outing/guarding issue? 

My only good answer is - "it depends". And it really does. With some dogs, any form of training and relationship building will help make the dog more willing to comply with a person. But to be honest, with most dedicated guarders - it has nothing to do with it. I know of many, many, many dogs who unequivocally absolutely love their families, and will still bite them if somebody tries to take their things. And with most of these dogs, as soon as the object is out of the picture they immediately return to being loving, adoring dogs.

Resource guarding is a funny thing, because it's actually not an abnormal behaviour (with the exception, as always, of a few extreme cases)! It's just inappropriate with humans and society. I rarely will intervene with dogs who guard from other dogs, unless it results in actual squabbles. Then I would just do as you do with Coke. But a dog really has the right to keep what it has at that moment, and that goes from dogs to coyotes to wolves (both captive and wild). In the dog world, the general etiquette is "If it's mine, it's mine until I`m done with it or I give it away`.  So the onus becomes our responsibility to teach them that it is okay to share!

I believe all pretty much all guarding against humans stems from that underlying anxiety of ``they are going to take my stuff! But it`s my stuff!``. While it can look and be very dangerous, generally the dogs are not enjoying the process either, as it takes a lot of energy (physically and emotionally) to guard one`s things and be hypervigilant all the time.

But you`d be surprised. There are some fabulous working dogs, some fabulous trial champions, and some fabulous therapy dogs who still experience resource guarding at home. With something like RG, often increasing general training and doing some relationship-building is necessary for sure, but generally you still need management and a proper protocol to re-condition dogs to be okay with you taking things from them.  It`s sort of like teaching a recall in the sense that all the NILIF in the world will not necessarily make a good recall - you physically need to train that to fluency.

I'm not surprised that some have disagreed with me, but I think you are misunderstanding my point of view.  Nothing in my remarks should be construed to indicate that I do not think a dog should be acclimated to having its mouth handled, opened, teeth brushed, gums massaged, or even icky stuff taken out of its mouth. In fact, all my dogs do all those things and more - Sequoyah swallows pills on cue, after I have opened her mouth and positioned them on the back of her tongue, without me having to put them in peanut butter or cheese LOL. But, ideally, that training should take place when the dog is between the ages of 8-16 weeks and be ongoing.   I DO believe that if the ONLY time you are taking hold of a dog's mouth is when he has something that you are determined to take away, you are in for trouble with many dogs, because they will start to run away with, swallow, guard, or defend their possessions.  The trade game (object exchange) is a reliable protocol for averting that disaster. 

spiritdogs

I DO believe that if the ONLY time you are taking hold of a dog's mouth is when he has something that you are determined to take away, you are in for trouble with many dogs, because they will start to run away with, swallow, guard, or defend their possessions.  The trade game (object exchange) is a reliable protocol for averting that disaster. 

I don't think anyone in this discussion could disagree with this.  As Kim said, it's normal behavior for a dog to consider what it has in it's mouth as his possession.  I know I've said this before but it's always good to remind ourselves, that so much of what we require dogs to do is not natural to them.  It's up to us to teach our dogs in a fair way what we want rather than try to force them in ways that create fear and distrust or just don't work.  

JackieG

I know I've said this before but it's always good to remind ourselves, that so much of what we require dogs to do is not natural to them.  It's up to us to teach our dogs in a fair way what we want rather than try to force them in ways that create fear and distrust or just don't work.  

Kim_MacMillan

Resource guarding is a funny thing, because it's actually not an abnormal behaviour (with the exception, as always, of a few extreme cases)! It's just inappropriate with humans and society. I rarely will intervene with dogs who guard from other dogs, unless it results in actual squabbles.

I agree. What Coke does doesn't bother me, and honestly there have been times where the other dogs have been around and pestered him and in those cases, he gives a rumble and they back off.  I appreciate this sort of dog-dog interaction, and I think in that case what Coke did was fair, and the offending dog gave the appropriate response of leaving him alone.  I feed my dogs in nice weather by scattering their kibble around the yard, and this does not cause any issues.  Nikon and Pan are both really into toys and each have their own "favorites" that they will guard from other dogs. Not something that bothers me since we don't have fights and I can step in and take whatever I please (and the dogs really value the toy because of the interaction with me, if I am playing with one dog another will get his toy and try to get a turn).

It's the same here. I let the dogs communicate with each other and let them deal with object-value issues. I have let Kash around the adults eating their raw from a relatively young age, so that he learned to respect their food without being at risk for getting hurt. Now that he has started to eat his own raw, Zipper approached once and tried to sort of sneak in for a bite and Kash told him in the kindest terms "No thanks, dad, but this is mine" and Zipper then learned in return that just cause he's the old man, doesn't mean he can be pushy either!

Granted, I also have a rather stable pack, and I trust them fully to interact like that. I don't do this freely when I have fosters or boarders around, as they aren't part of their group. When I have additional dogs, even ones that mingle 24/7 with mine, the high-value stuff goes away unless there are barriers between my dogs and other dogs.

I love throwing their kibble in the kitchen and letting them scrounge for it! Sometimes when I'm in a rush and it's a "kibble meal" I will do this, and they will all share in cleaning up the food. I don't tend to do it in the yard because the Schnauzers are so naturally sniffy as a breed, I don't want them thinking that they should often be snuffing in the grass for food tidbits (especially during training!), so with them I only chuck food on hard surfaces like their kennel or indoor floors.

This has turned into a really fascinating discussion and I'm glad to see all the different points of view. I would like to add that I CAN easily handle Royce's mouth, teeth, and gums so long as he DOESN'T have something he wasn't in there. There is a big difference between his behavior just having his mouth messed with, vs. trying to get something from him he wants. He thinks it's really fun to have people open his mouth because that means he has someone touching him, which is wonderful on planet Royce, lol. Honestly he is THE most touchy, kissy, waggy lap dog I have ever had and possibly ever met. Today I gave him a bland chew (not on e of his favorite, BBQ flavored bones) , walked away, and CALLED him to me. I had some almost-expired ham I decided to use as a treat. Kim, calling him over was wonderful! I had him "drop it" himself to get some ham, vs. me reaching and pulling it. I think that is part of the problem. Having him release it FOR me seems to work better than grabbing at it. We did this a few times *before* he got super engaged with it and I felt this is a good foundation to start laying. Over time, we'll up it to times when he's more engaged, different items, etc.

Great!  I think it's great if he will drop rather than you take.  I bet after a while you will basically be able to reach in and give the command but for starters if he will offer that, I think it is the way to go because it removes the tension (literally and figuratively).

 Coming back in here late, but wanted to share that it matters HOW you teach a dog to relinquish objects.  If you aggressively pull things from a dog's mouth you risk creating aggression in the dog: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090217141540.htm

The fact that we want our dogs to relinquish objects is fine, it's just that the road to getting there must be through communication and not force.  When you force, you encourage guarding.  Most dogs never guard, but those that do will make you wish you had never yanked that first sock from their little puppy razor teeth. 

All dogs should be handled all over from the time you take them away from mom & litter at age 8 weeks.  By the time they are 16 weeks old, they should be very familiar with all the things you need them to do as adults, including hearing a set of clippers or a hair dryer, having their mouths opened for examination, walking on odd surfaces, and viewing baseball hats, sunglasses and umbrellas as ordinary objects.  

An update on Royce's progress! One word - YAY! LoL, he's doing awesomely. Getting him to bring the objects (toys, chewies, etc.) to me has really been a brilliant idea. I am making him feel like he's showing me a lovely treasure at which I am amazed, inspect it, reward him, and return it. LOL. Works for him! We're not 100% but we are heading in the right direction!