Article: Positives of Negatives & Negatives of Positives

 I have only skimmed some of the longer posts and freely admit I have much less experience and knowledge than all the posters in this thread, however........ I've studied human behavior/education/training/psychology for many years. And that does help me in understanding dog training.

I thought it was good because she admitted that 100% positive is not reality. Honestly to me a body block isn't that negative either - at least for my dog, nor is anything I have tried to be frank.I considered mentioning that earlier but the fact they she is discussing the population of dogs not my dog I saw that it wasn't terribly relevant.

In working with people I always work with the individual and design a plan specific to that person's needs and methods of being.  I believe the same of dogs - personalized training is best.

My dog isn't going to be upset by anything - well other than the smoke alarm.  I have witnessed dogs cower when yelled at - my dog and the dog that cowers when scolded need very different

From just watching something like Schutzhund clearly the dogs are of a certain character and you want to intensify their reactions to things.  But fido who just needs to walk down the street shouldn't be trained using the same methods as a schutzhund dog.

And the definition and purpose of aversives in each situation will be different

stardog85

I would be pretty willing to bet that the examples in the article were chosen specifically to keep from so offending some people that they stop listening, especially after the reactions McConnell saw to her post about rehoming a dog.

Exactly!!  I wish she could just say what she wants to say without having to worry about people sulking away in a huff about this or that.

Kim_MacMillan

When using aversives:
- Can they be physical or should they be hands off?
- Should you ever strike your dog in training?
- Are hands-on aversives better or electronic ones?
- Is electricity okay to use in the name of teaching?
- How far are you willing to escalate an aversive to change a behaviour?
- Some say you need the aversive to be swift enough the first time - do I have what it takes to really "make it count" when it comes to that punishment?
- Do you follow a hierarchy of punishments (removal of attention/body block/time-out/physical correction) or do you "inflict quick, and move on"? Is it more fair to give the dog a chance to learn from a lesser punishment, or make it so that dog understands clearly, with no chance of misunderstanding, the first time?
- Have you tried kinder methods first?
- Are you 100% certain the dog understands what you are asking before you punish it? Does the dog understand a way to obtain reward (does it know the "right choice"?)
- Is there a one-size-fits-all approach, or are things modified based upon the situation?

See, I found this list of questions more thought-provoking than the actual article.  You should start a thread....or write an article!

Liesje

When dealing with breeds where courage, fighting drive, and strong active aggression are desirable traits that must be tested and evaluated, there must always be some element of pressure.  In my experience one of the most rewarding parts of dog training is building a dog's confidence through the careful and subtle uses of pressure.  We are not so much teaching tricks and commands as we are showing a dog the correct way to be in control using drives that are inherent.  Also the article does not touch on using "aversive" type stimuli to actually arouse the dog into a higher state of drive.  You can't do this with all dogs but for those that you can, frustration -> release is a very powerful tool.

Hi Liesje

I know what you are saying, and i haven't checked with training buddies that do Shutzhund, but in my State normal Obedience trial condtions are nothing like the US. Nothing at all. There are other dogs in the next ring that are clearly visible,and there is no barrier at all.  it is a much larger ring. The duration of the exercises is longer. The ground condtions vary from very wet (my little dog was sending up a spray plume on Monday) to nearly no grass and crisply dry. The heat is a huge factor , and so can the cold. Country trials can be a little tough.

I do "pressure" my dogs in training, but slowly and carefully. A dog that won't work under the conditions that i have stated isn't a whole lot of fun. Some states do wise things like hold twilight trials so that the heat is not such a factor. I do wortk my dogs in a similar state that many Shutzhund people use in the obedience phase of the tests. To get there is a sort of yo yo thing, where you need to up the "drive" and then work a bit on precision etc.

I think too that an "Aversive" is in the eye of the dog. Being agitated is hardly aversive to a dog in the correct drive as it amps them up not causes a reduction in the desired behaviour. Some dogs get amped with leash pops. Way to many don't but the clowns handling them don't seem to ever figure this out ...