does clicker training have drawbacks?

 Hi

I think timing is so dam important to! I train a breed that many talk about being good at obedience but in actual fact so few are. They show all the promise in the world but crap out in things that are about timing. The first is heeling. We have relatievly long duration heeling and you have to get your timing right!!  The next is stays.. YES timing is so important in stays. I remember what  a brain burn a stay was to Luci. I had to move away at 1/4 a step at a time and get the timing right. Now i have a dog that has only ever broken 1 stay in trialling and is happy to stay..

As for tracking, well a fair bit about that is placement. I know that it sounds conceited but these dogs make decisions fast and if you don't back them they think they are wrong! I handled one of the all time hard chargers in tracking, a phenomanally accurate fast dog, and he was slower than luci in her very first corner. I even see DVDs of my breed hanging around looking vacant tracking. I know why :)  (We don't worry about speed in tracks here, but sure do in Shutzhund :))

Ok I am back from out of town, thanks Liesje, Poodleowned, and all for the great info....

Got a clicker that hangs from my belt but have two questions.

First let me say that my pup knows "stay" when we are waiting to exit a door and the reward is "OK" (with or without a treat depending on whether i have a treat or not)

But I have never enforced a stay (I am trying to stay away from force)

!st question: how do you teach a dog to stay with a clicker if the sound of the clicker means come and get a reward .....(NOT stay!)

2nd question:  If I teach the dog to come with a clicker when exactly do I click?  when he starts coming?....midway? or when he gets to me?

3rd question: If I teach him to sit and then click what if I also want him to perform another task BEFORE coming for his reward.

In other words how do you transition from SIT...come and claim reward to SIT STAY...come and get a reward?

Thank you for your patience!!  really!

I use a clicker sparingly, so don't really mind me. I've used it a little bit here and there, heeling, retrieve etc., but haven't really shaåed anything from start to finish.

Liesje

For example I have and will *always* freeshape with a clicker the entire formal retrieve.

I'm just curious. What is your sequence? The classic (?) object on the floor and attention > touch >lift etc. or do you start with the object in your hand and dog in front of you?

And because you might be interested I know that some WUSV participants over the years have trained protection phases using operant conditioning.

^

 SIT STAY is only a longer SIT. I teach my dogs to remain in the desired position for as long as I tell them otherwise. In trials I may repeat the SIT command when I leave a dog before a stay or I may say STAY, which means absolutely nothing to my dogs.

Riiseli:

Thanks fo good info. I like the  sentance at the end  about habit. I am a firm believer in habit and I depend on it with my traqining, Also I find that, having been inactive for years, the hardest thing is to re-learn the good habits of dog-handling, consistancy, correct timeing,emphasizing the positive ,ignoring the negative, etc.

Having been raised in an atmosphere of tyranny, and leaving school in the 6th grade, I was strongly attracted to the pack-dominance model championed by the late German dog guru William Koeler, (keohler...Koehler? ) anyway he wrote several books back in the 60s "Guard Dog Training" etc.

years later I went back to school and took a few courses in psychology and learned about classical/operant conditioning.

I had some limited success with dogs and opened my own business "Doggie Daycare" (Yep, my idea, as far as I know)

After a few years I read  Behan's book about Natural Dog Training and figured he was the next thing to Jesus himself

Needless to say with all this knowledge and experience under my belt I figured I was a pretty dammed good Dog trainer.......

Then I got Billy!  and he taught me that I know exactly _ _ _ _!

tex123

Having been raised in an atmosphere of tyranny, and leaving school in the 6th grade, I was strongly attracted to the pack-dominance model championed by the late German dog guru William Koeler, (keohler...Koehler? ) anyway he wrote several books back in the 60s "Guard Dog Training" etc.

Actually Bill Koehler was American and many of us did think he walked on water... You are not alone there! I for one had to change my ways it was dam hard.

I don't actually use the clicker a whole lot in teaching stays. I generally go real slow though. The first bit is 1/2 a step away from your dogs side.Reward.

 Reward each time. There is something else going on for the dog too, he is probably a little anxious and we need to keep our cool and take it slow. Generally, don't go for distance first , go for time.

You can have a look at my thoughts on Behan's theories on another series of postings. He is not alone in having a theory all on his lonesome. 

I think they pop up every second day and often the camp followers aren't a whole lot of fun. We have them here too. I am just doing a quick count in my head of shall we say "non orthodox" trainers in my city. There are a few. Getting the truth about what they actually do is always a bit of fun. it is hardly ever what they say and write. The hassle is that if you have to teach against them in a class, it takes a lot of time. I now take the "Ian Dunbar" short cut. Basically ask them to get their money back and shove off.

 What most of them seem to be is hugely low on measureable or assesable outcomes.

Dang, Tex. You got the one behavior one does not use a clicker for. Stay is an indetermined amount of time and is trained better without the clicker. Because the end of stay is not always fixed. You might need him to stay for a while. But for other finite timed events, the clicker is great.

Well,  I've always been difficult, I school i was always forgeting my books. One day the teacher said," Go home and get your books, and don't come back without them!"....I went home and never went back

Thanks for clearing that up ron....don't click for stay.

Also, How do you teach pup to come and get the treat upon hearing the sound of the clicker, say come at the same time you click?

The initial phase, which may take as long as 5 minutes out of the 12 to 20 years that your dog will live is called charging the clicker. You click and lob a treat. This is learning by association. And this is definitely treat every time you click. I spent a whole week doing it which was probably overkill. Whether it's five minutes or an hour or whatever, doesn't matter. What is important is that your dog understands that the clicker means reward, forever, amen. The books says  5 to 15 minutes to charge the clicker. And you could charge at the beginning of the first one or two sessions. But i think after session one, you will have a dog who is excited when you pick up the clicker, before you even click it.

Here's why. The thought, "more is better" is very much dog-think. This ticks off the socialists in here and I don't mean it to do so but dogs are the ultimate capitalists. The excel at getting and guard resources. The are better at it than humans. The humans are simply better at hunting with tools. And they are creatures of efficiency. Doing what you ask gets them resources with less expenditure of energy. And if a little is good, more is better. This nugget of insight came from our member Chuffy. A simple little bon mot and the whole dang thing fell into place for me. With the clicker or any marker, you are using the dog's own "dog-like" tendencies to train him/her. The dog trains himself, out of his desire for resources.

Also, clicker is a manner of timing,  You give the recall command. Perhaps for you it is "come", for me, it's "here." Whatever it is, you give the command or signal. When the dog completes the behavior, you click, then treat, in that order. But, at first, you may have to shorten the goals. This is part of shaping. At first, the dog may not come all the way to you. So, at first, you click and treat for any movement in your direction in response to the recall word. Trust me, the dog will work his way all the way to you. Because "more is better" for a dog. When the dog finally gets to you, click and reward that only, not the intermediate steps any more. This lets the dog know that the complete return is the rewarding thing, not some ratio he can come up with.

You are shaping toward the target behavior that you want. Some dogs get the target right away, others you have lead, in successive steps of getting closer.

Sorry for the delayed response, Am charging the clicker now, and will work on it for a few days owing to the fact that I have been clicking without the dog knowing what the h__ the clicker is....I really should know all this stuff but I have been so involved with other stuff so long that some of my learning has gone exstinct, and what with forgetfulness (Alshiemers?) and trying to get back my timeing etc. I am having a little trouble, so I appreciate all the helpm I can get..thank god for this cite.

I have cut out all billy's free time (time alone in the back yard) and he is beginning to focus on me much better and is more willing to play. He is getting pretty good at stopping when we approach an intersection and I let the leash go slack and say "wait" Also I am starting to say "Heel" when he comes around to my left side (classical conditioning?) I will work on some clicker "heeling" in another day or so. Thanks again

Henry

I've done some things with classical conditioning. I trained my dog to walk with mushing commands. No treats. We simply went my way and I spoke the commands as we went.

Hike means go, hook means stop, haw means left, gee means right.

I've been using "wait" for stop, left and right for left and right...guess I should get with the program.

 If you want to make sure you are doing things sequentially and correctly, there's a really good little site: www.clickerlessons.com, that you can visit.  Also, once you get going, visit kikopup channel on Youtube. You will be hooked;-)

Thank you Spirit, I will definately check it out.

Hey, Tex, your words are fine, as long as they mean the same thing, every time. I used mushing commands because my dog is primarily Siberian Husky and I thought it would be neat to have those special commands. You don't have to use the ones I use. You could say "goose" for left, for all that matters. As long as it always means left.