Hey, now we're talkin'....

Liesje

For me it is dependent on the temperament of the dog. 

Well, maybe it is and it isn't. I have quite different approaches for my two dogs, and I'm keenly aware that what I do for one that will be just right would be too much of one thing or another for the other dog. But my aims for the two dogs are more or less the same and the method I choose is the same for both of them. The difference is in the way I apply those methods, not so much in the methods themselves. I will always favour things that make sense to me and I will therefore be more practised at them and more creative and confident in applying them, and that will lead to me finding more situations where they work well for my dog. But to me they work well for my dog because I am more skilled with it than because my dog's personality is better suited to it. Recently someone said to me that if they never told their dog that some things are just not to be done, they would spend their life distracting their dog and shoving food in its mouth. It really struck me that I've said more than once that if I didn't tell my dog what he should do I'd spend most of my life unteaching him things he'd learnt on his own that I didn't like. Maybe I could achieve the same thing with my dog if I concentrated on suppressing a few behaviours as I have by concentrating on rewarding a few behaviours I'd like him to use as a default.

 HI

I am just not that sure. I think that the devotion some have towards particular trainers is even more extreme than some religions. I am learning some diplomacy. The other day instead of asking someone whether they were a yank and crank merchant,a modern day if at first a few rewards don't work then give it a biff merchant, or a bit of an all round "softie" like me,  i asked which club they went to and who did they know. I knew the people and starting talking a bit more freely

There is no point talking dog training unless you know and respect the people.

Sigh.  And this kind of stuff is exactly why I stay out of this section of the forum.

I still want to learn more and different ideas, but I find it difficult to wade through all the garbage and BS.  I'm sure I'm not alone.

Why does it always have to be so inhumane in any of these types of threads?

Though methods differ and I prefer Dunbar's approach over Cesar's there is one thing Cesar does have in common with other trainers such as Dunbar and even our own Spiritdogs. Never allow what you don't want, ever. The difference is in how errant behavior is addressed. Again, that is a matter of technique and timing.

But Cesar's greatest struggle is not with the dog, so much, though he has been bitten several times and I think that bears looking into. His greatest struggle is with the pet owner.

Getting them to decide, in their own mind, that this behavior is not acceptable, not now, not ever. That is the hardest part. Whether you "tsst" or reward re-direction, or reward non-engagement, simply setting rules as if they were laws of the universe is the most important part. Always let the dog know what is expected.

And that is the hardest battle. Many problems with a dog are from allowing a behavior during puppyhood which was "cute" but is not so adorable at 80 lbs and 26 inches to the shoulder.

Where I would disagree with Cesar, aside from the physical approach is that he says he is not training the dog, just rehabilitating it. Well, he is still using operant conditioning, and that is still learning and part of a training regime.

One of the best things he has done to get an owner to establish rules and guidelines for a dog is to have the owner remember a time when they were in charge or led a crew of people. How did they feel and think, then? You can literally see the person stand differently and breathe differently. And that's 9/10 of the work. And it's not that every dog is seeking to be "alpha." But if they are not following you, they are following someone or something else or following their own desire.

ron2

Though methods differ and I prefer Dunbar's approach over Cesar's there is one thing Cesar does have in common with other trainers such as Dunbar and even our own Spiritdogs. Never allow what you don't want, ever. The difference is in how errant behavior is addressed. Again, that is a matter of technique and timing.

But Cesar's greatest struggle is not with the dog, so much, though he has been bitten several times and I think that bears looking into. His greatest struggle is with the pet owner.

Getting them to decide, in their own mind, that this behavior is not acceptable, not now, not ever. That is the hardest part. Whether you "tsst" or reward re-direction, or reward non-engagement, simply setting rules as if they were laws of the universe is the most important part. Always let the dog know what is expected.

And that is the hardest battle. Many problems with a dog are from allowing a behavior during puppyhood which was "cute" but is not so adorable at 80 lbs and 26 inches to the shoulder.

Where I would disagree with Cesar, aside from the physical approach is that he says he is not training the dog, just rehabilitating it. Well, he is still using operant conditioning, and that is still learning and part of a training regime.

One of the best things he has done to get an owner to establish rules and guidelines for a dog is to have the owner remember a time when they were in charge or led a crew of people. How did they feel and think, then? You can literally see the person stand differently and breathe differently. And that's 9/10 of the work. And it's not that every dog is seeking to be "alpha." But if they are not following you, they are following someone or something else or following their own desire.

Very good post.  After spending a while conversing theory w/ Kevin Behan's web-folk and then after Peanut's agressive bouts led me here, to NILIF, and to taking a new look at Trish and Caesar's books/DVDs, I have come to conclude - much as you say, ron2 - that all trainers are in agreement that there has to be a single source for authority.

Trish makes the point over and over that dogs in a home do not want a democracy - you must provide the rules of the game.  Caesar says you are the source of rules and discipline to gain a calm balance (to disparagingly insist that by this he means you must literally duplicate the wolf pack leadership behavior is a quite transparent cheap shot taken by his detractors). Behan says your dog must see you as a moose (this is generally meant to be metaphorical, as well); you must teach Fido you are its 'prey'=its source of calmness via energy release. 

 And the more you read/listen to these and other popular trainers, the more alike they all sound.  Each has a toolbox of favorite techniques s/he is comfortable with.

Not really wishing to train our mutts to do much of anything, we fell into the errors of too little control/discipline giver in the NILIF practices, or (as I said somewhere before) in Caesars mantra, we improperly ordered exercise>discipline>affection, as exercise>affection>>discipline.

 It really is primarily about Trish's owner at 'the other end of the leash'.  When we brought each of our newly acquired mutts to basic dog training classes, we unserstood it was mainly us who were the focus of the education.  But we had lapsed a good bit, I'm afraid. 

As i go along training , the less bothered i am about certain dog behaviours and the more certain i am about the responses. I just plain flat out think that Caeser's appraocah in most cases is at least overly dramatic and often wrong.Makes dramatic TV though

May be it is me, but i have no place for a subdued animal with suppressed drives. I really am not a pet person. I have two very active bratty dogs that do what i ask when i ask them to. I just don't see the point in them doing all that stuff when i don't.

 When Sam came home he would growl if asked to do anything, and i just ignored it and had he do what i wanted from a management perspective. Soon i trained him to sit, and then to drop and then to heel but using very calm soft R+ methods. I spent ages (and still do) working on play with him. He will growl if he feels threatened and i listen. But he still gets to overcome it.My attitude is thanks for the warning Sam, but life goes on

One of the crappy things that happens when we present a model of canine behaviour  Like Caeser's is that we start to select for dogs that aren't that fiesty, that couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding drive wise.or that we spend relentless hours boring the socks off them and us doing the exercise mantra.I depsie the sort of "got to" rather than the joy of owning dogs that this kind of policy represents. It leaks through to dog shows and the dogs that the working dog world needs don't do too well. The Labs i want for example and nearer the Marley's than the quite dead boring dogs that seem to get shown now.

Dogs need stimulation,learning, exercise, affection and very occasional discipline. If it is any more than that something is wrong, badly wrong.

I guess that i am immediately able to be discounted becuase i have poodles. I must point out that i handle and work with a wide vareity of breeds and  to be quite frank, my poodles would kick major A compared to many so called working breeds. They are stroppier than many that is for sure. A dog is a dog and what we work with is the dog on the end of the lead.

Well-spoken, Poodleowned. Make the snits a non-event. Great, you growled but we're still doing it my way. Live with it, love it. Rather than making it a contest of wills, so to speak. There used to be a saying. My way or the highway. Instead, there is only my way, no other consideration. This may sound didactic but I think it provides clarity.