Wales Bans Shock Collars

spiritdogs

Talking from owning a rescued dog that had one used on him, and from years of observation.

Thank you for comfirming that you have no experience using ecollars whatsoever. You are arguing against people who have actually used them personally and properly

I've been "observing" American Idol for years, does that make me a singer?

spiritdogs

Just like he goes around "tssst"-ing his dog because he saw it on TV.

But according to your logic, if they have years of dog TV shows observations they might be experienced handlers

For all the lurkers out there it will be good to listen to people who have actual experience using the tool properly and not just listen to those who base their opinions from just reading articles and "observing"

espencer

For all the lurkers out there it will be good to listen to people who have actual experience using the tool properly and not just listen to those who base their opinions from just reading articles and "observing"

You don't need experience with any particular tool to understand how operant conditioning works, and I do have experience with remote collars, just not the ones that issue shock.  We use frequently use vibration collars to train deaf dogs.  In any case, I love your advice because now people can stop listening to those who get their dog training knowledge by watching Cesar Millan - after all, he does say to consult with a trainer if you need assistance with your dog.

spiritdogs

The problem is NOT limited to e-collars, and I never said it was - you assumed that's what I meant.  I think any pain-inducing device is better left unused, but if someone is going to use one, it should be someone who has extensive knowledge of OC, timing, and a basically humane attitude, not one that is focused on the dog being an automaton and having to conform to every iota of our desire for him to be perfect, and with a basic misunderstanding of how well positive reinforcement actually works.  Too many people in the e-collar community are more focused on performance, obedience, and dominance than on any realistic expectations of their dogs as partners or beings deserving of a little individualism or respect to even try to change their thinking on the need for pain in training.  (This is just my opinion, and I'm entitled to one, even if you don't like it.)   I agree with you that the tool IS incidental to stupidity, which is the larger issue, but I also think that stupidity extends to the lack of understanding of the correct application of positive reinforcement training, too.  By the way, I have used remote collars, too - the ones that only vibrate.  They are great to work on distance training with deaf dogs.  But, they really ARE a "tap" used in that way.  Vibration doesn't hurt - shock does.  If it didn't, why would anyone think it would get the dog's attention?  After all, it's not exactly a primary, or even secondary reinforcer, something the dog might want.  It's a punisher, used by people who believe that punishment is necessary to reliably alter behavior. 

If this device were so innocent, why the need to euphemize?  It's a shock collar, which shocks the dog (lightly or not so lightly).  So, why are shock collar trainers suddenly so averse to saying those words?  Marketing types are having a field day re-branding these products to make them more palatable to who???  The general public, that's who - not the guys who go out and buy the Cadillac e-collars.  Suddenly, we have "tap" and "stim"  or "radio frequency stimulus" and we have "remote" or "electronic" but no more "shock"???  Some trainers are so convoluted about it that you can't even tell from their web sites that that's the method they use - I don't know about you, but if I'm going to hire a trainer, I want to know in advance what he/she plans to use on my dog.

Then in the context of this thread (the ban) I still don't understand why the shock collar is singled out.  Why would the ban not extend to all corrective training devices?  That is why people brought up BSL.  Different issue but same logic.  *Some* dogs are aggressive to ban them all.  *Some* people are idiots with their training tools so ban them all.

If you want to call it "shock" that is fine, I've already referred to it as a shock collar since that's the common term.  But that's not really how they work. The collar can give a continuous stim AND change levels at the same time.  A shock is just a shock, you can't receive a single shock over a period of seconds or have that shock change in level. So the word shock does not accurately describe what the collar is doing and how it is used. I just used the words that e-collar trainers and users use.

JackieG

This is a good example of why some of us don't believe shock collars belong in the hands of the casual dog owner who wants to "fix" his dogs bad habits.  With a whistle or a clicker, mistakes aren't a big deal to dog or trainer.   Not always the case with a shock collar.

I don't think anyone wants a novice dog owner to cruise around shocking their dog. ... that was not my intent. My point is any device that is misused can be bad. I don't want idiots walking around with them either... I like your idea about needing a course to get one, though.  I wish people were required to have one, too, before spawning   Maybe that one would eliminate the need for the other! lol But, I guess that's for another topic! :o)

spiritdogs

You don't need experience with any particular tool to understand how operant conditioning works

But you need experience with a specific tool to have a basis on banning it, not just "observations" and readings. I could watch a training video on youtube BUT i need to implement that training first to have a personal experience to back up my opinion about it.

Your students "observe" you training your dog, do you send them right away home and tell them to do it themselves there? or do you tell them to first do it in front of you to see if they are doing it right?

I think that you "observed" the use of an e collar and you just "went home" (and you didnt even tried it there) and formed your own conclusions.  

I'm not a fan of clicker training but i dont promote to get rid of it because there are people out there that are very successful with it. You want to get rid of everything you dont like AND you dont want to let other people use it either (ecollars, leash corrections, redirections by touching, etc.). 

Lani, I know that your statement wasn't meant as condoning or encouraging the inexperienced dog owner to use a shock collar.  My point was that a clicker or a whistle is not going to cause any harm or damage to a dog or the relationship between owner and dog.  I have no problem with shock collars when used properly because I don't think they are any more dangerous than any other misused training tool.  I do believe, as Anne has stated, they are too often used as a short cut by people who don't have a clue.

Most of the instances of misused training tools, that I have witnessed, is because a person lost their temper.  Good dog trainers stop before they get to that level of frustration and throw a few happy bumpers and ponder why the dog isn't understanding.  Good dog trainers know there aren't any shortcuts to training and they don't expect to reach their goals without putting in the time.

I wish people had to take a course before owning a pet and lets not even talk about taking a course before they reproduce themselves. lol