"Aggressive" dogs

espencer

No wonder why some trainers handle every single dog with "silk gloves" and go to work with a constant fear that the dog they work with might show aggression at some point.

I cannot speak for "some trainers" but I can speak for myself, since I am fairly well convinced that you meant me anyway.  I do not treat dogs with "silk gloves" (in any case, I think the saying is "kid gloves";), but I do realize that it is wise not to allow a dog to practice behavior unless you want them to get really good at it.  I don't want dogs that I train to get good at aggression.  What I want is for them to get good at coping in other ways that will *not* insure them a trip to the dead bin at the local shelter.  By the way, I would certainly not want for any dog to actually commit its first bite as the result of something stupid that I did - something I have seen too often with "some trainers".

spiritdogs

I do realize that it is wise not to allow a dog to practice behavior

This does not make sense. Why would you allow a dog to practice something you want to extinguish? I remember that once i spoke with John, the manager of the facility from Dogtown. I was able to see that both of his hands were full of bite marks and he is a "positive" trainer. I would not call him stupid whatsoever, dogs are dogs and they bite; if someone works with aggressive dogs then they are going to get bitten but not because they are stupid. Thinking this way would be like calling every firefighter stupid because they get burn sometimes when they fight a fire.

So someone can either stand there and "be safe" by just open the "water faucet" or go inside the burning building and actually save lives

moderator speaking

sigh - please keep to the thread topic, which is the definition of aggression.

If you want to have a discussion about training an aggressive dog start a new thread in the training section.

thanks

Thanks Karen. 

I am interested in aggression as a temperament trait, not really good or bad but just something that is there or not. 

I think we all will concede that *any* dog, when pushed far enough will go into a "fight or flight" response which will eventually involve biting and other aggressive displays.  Even the most mentally sound dog will eventually maul you if you try to skin him alive, you know?

I am quite interested in aggression as a temepament trait as well, only, I don't think it's as simple as just a temperament trait. When I got Erik at around 10 weeks old, I saw right away aspects of personality in him that reminded me strongly of this aggressive puppy my mum had. But he didn't have the full suite of personality traits that were so disastrous in that dog. They were both stroppy little things prone to growling and fighting if they weren't happy, but on top of that, the other puppy was very anxious about new things. He was fearful, and yet he was confident. He was prone to swinging between the two, and it seemed to produce a dog prone to attacking when afraid. Erik was never as ready to be aggressive, and he is a lot more confident. He's also got a much stronger pack drive. He is very outspoken, but he doesn't front up aggressively when he's afraid. When he's scared he cowers first.

I think that wasn't very coherent.

 All people (and dogs and cats and birds and.....) have the capacity for aggression. 

Am I an aggressive person?  No.  Do I have the capacity for aggression?  Yes, I have slammed a few doors in my time.  I have raised my voice and yelled when my threshold has been reached.  It doesn't happen often, but even if it had never happened at all, the capacity is there. 

The same is true of dogs.  All dogs have the capacity for aggression.  Like spiritdogs said, it never goes away. 

It is not true to say that this must then mean that shut down dogs can't exist.  A shut down dog is merely a dog who has learned not to DO anything - it doesn't mean he has not learned to FEEL anything.  That is pretty much WHY aggression needs to be handled with care; simply suppressing it (so you can't see the outward signs of it) does not mean it has gone away.  "Aggression" is normally used to describe a display at a given  moment, but I don't think it's wise to narrow it down completely to ONLY that.  That's when (like Jackie said) it can bite you in the wossname, because it can still be THERE, even if it is not being displayed.

I like Gina's post on page 1 - that a dog is "aggressive" when the dog (or person for that matter) is being aggressive most of the time.... or perhaps even when aggression is always/nearly always the first thing they resort to, when there is something they want.  Perhaps they have never learned other ways to get that (training, socialisation, etc) or perhaps they have just learned aggression is most effective in gettig what they want.  Then again, some people/animals are MORE aggressive than others.... or maybe it's true to say they are more prone to aggression than others... because of their temperament, the way they are born, the way they are wired.

I am still reluctant to describe aggression as a personality trait.

Aggression, as a behaviour, is caused by other factors that are inherent in a dog's temperament. Things like sensitivity, threshold levels, impulsivity, tenacity, dedication, persistance, intensity, tolerance - these are things that tend to be hard-wired in dogs, things you see in a dog from a young age, and not easily changeable. Then taken into account is previous experiences (generally negative) or traumas, and socialization (which, really, can be said to be tied directly to the hard-wiring aspect, as socialization changes the way the brain functions). Aggression is the summation, and outcome, of those factors when lined up in certain combinations.

I have met few truly "aggressive" animals in my life, animals that showed extreme levels of aggression and were always on edge, not able to relax, and could not come back down from the aroused state......and in almost all of those cases there was actually something wrong with the dog neurologically. These are dogs that actually required physical intervention in the way of medicine to help these dogs live a semi-normal life by changing their brain neurochemistry, and even then some of those dogs needed to be euthanized as there was truly little that could be done for them. Some of the saddest I've seen are puppy mill animals, who unfortunately were long lost due to their circumstances.

 Here's how the Merck veterinary manual defines the various forms of canine aggression:

http://merckveterinarymanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/140215.htm

And, their suggestions on treating aggression (note that any provocation of the aggression is to be avoided):

http://merckveterinarymanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/140215.htm

Kim_MacMillan

I am still reluctant to describe aggression as a personality trait.

Here's a nice dog, has some real power and aggression in his protection work.  I can assure you this dog would not be scoring perfect 100 at the world championships if he had neurological problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRwAWVIHDJI

What's interesting about dogs doing protection is that the more correct their aggression is, the less frantic and anxious of a picture they present.  The really anxious dogs are typically ones that are prey oriented and/or made anxious because they can't handle the pressure of the helper or the pressure used by the handler in training.  The dogs that present a picture of power and courage while remaining calm and sound tend to bring real fight and aggression to their work without looking nervy or neurotic.

But that's what I mean. He uses a lot of power and aggression in his work. That is a dog who has learned how to actively use (or proactively use) aggression in a controlled fashion as directed by a person. The aggression should not be present when not asked for, and the aggression also only occurs in response to specific stimuli or cues. I'm still not sure that I could call him a dog that "is aggressive" in nature. I would be more apt to call him a very stable, very confident, very intense dog who can control aggression.

But...then again, you get into another sticky situation. Perhaps the word used to describe dogs doing protection or schutzhund work shouldn't really be aggression at all. It is using a lot of components of aggression, for sure - barking, stalking, biting, tension - but it's all under control and (hopefully) never occurs outside of that situation. If a dog like that were to use aggression in the "real world", chances are it would actually not look like that.

For instance, if Nikon, or that dog in the video, were to get into a fight with another dog, it would look like a classic dogfight, and it would not hold the same qualities as the displayed aggression, or control, of a protection act. I doubt Nikon would "grab and hold" another dog and simply not let go like he would to a sleeve. There would be posturing, and growling, and biting (but likely many bites). The same goes with a human bite - if one of these dogs were forced to bite a human, it likely wouldn't look like the picture of a schutzhund bite. I really do think as much of it has to do with simple training and learning as it does with inborn aggression as a personality trait.

I've seen equally calm, and controlled, looks in dogs that experience predation. Dogs who are successful hunters are calm, collect, and in control - they are rarely aroused such that they lose control. The one time I have seen Zipper catch a bird and kill it, it was so fluid and calm that I almost didn't see it happen, and it was dead silent. You can usually spot the difference between a successul hunter, and a "wannabe" hunter (the dog who simply chases other animals or sniffs out other animals - they get quite excited, trembly, barky, etc).

Unfortunately, you often also see this type of calm and collect behaviour in some Pitty dogs who are highly dog-aggressive. Dogs that are used in fighting, are descended from fighting, or who still have that propensity, don't usually experience inter-dog aggression in the same fashion that a lot of other dogs do. A lot of aggression of Pitties towards other dogs often occurs in this same calm, collect manner. I have witnessed a Pitty attack on another dog and when the argument was broken up, the Pitty wasn't even breathless. You'd think he just got up from a roll in the grass, he was that calm and collect. That level of eery emotional control and total (I hate to say it) stability in his own body is a very scary thing to witness. That dog could lie calmly and quietly in a kennel directly in front of another dog, could even walk by another dog at a distance and pay no mind, but set it loose around another dog, and wow.

I see similar traits in the dogs that do protection work in the level of control and arousal that the dogs exhibit. There's nothing like total and utter confidence, and you know it when you see it. It's a totally different picture than "normal aggression", and I do see that difference in anxious vs. confident and calm dogs.

It's a really complex situation, and I'm not sure there's really one right answer. It's likely a combination of things.

Kim_MacMillan

But that's what I mean. He uses a lot of power and aggression in his work. That is a dog who has learned how to actively use (or proactively use) aggression in a controlled fashion as directed by a person. The aggression should not be present when not asked for, and the aggression also only occurs in response to specific stimuli or cues. I'm still not sure that I could call him a dog that "is aggressive" in nature. I would be more apt to call him a very stable, very confident, very intense dog who can control aggression.

But...then again, you get into another sticky situation. Perhaps the word used to describe dogs doing protection or schutzhund work shouldn't really be aggression at all. It is using a lot of components of aggression, for sure - barking, stalking, biting, tension - but it's all under control and (hopefully) never occurs outside of that situation. If a dog like that were to use aggression in the "real world", chances are it would actually not look like that.

It's not that it's being "asked for", because you simply cannot, no matter how much training, get a dog to work like this if it's just not in him.  The way this dog is working is genetic.  The control is not there just because of training.  In this scenario, the dog is in control and he knows it.  I think those who don't train in this sport don't see how much of this is genetic and how much it is about the dog and not the handler or even the training.  The general public likes to think that this is all "on demand" by the handler but the obedience is really incidental.  The protection phase is a "routine" but it nonetheless shows the true nature of the dog whether the person watching can see it or not.

There are good "street dogs" (police dogs) with the same genetic components that use this real, active aggression in the real world quite a bit.  If the genetics are there, it doesn't really matter.  A good dog with good active aggression is not sleeve or suit oriented.

I just don't subscribe to the underlying theme that aggression implies a lack of control by the dog.  I think it's far more complex, like the link Anne posted which lists about a dozen different categories for aggression (and some still seem very over simplified).

Liesje

just don't subscribe to the underlying theme that aggression implies a lack of control by the dog.  I think it's far more complex, like the link Anne posted which lists about a dozen different categories for aggression (and some still seem very over simplified).

Oh, I quite agree. If I gave the impression that I intended that meaning, I do apologize. I know several types of aggression that are all about control, and one could argue that most types are of some sort of control, even if it's a message of "I am scared, and I want you out of my space NOW". Just as there are some cases of aggression caused by the threat of a loss of control. But there are also some types of aggression that are the outcome of a total loss of control of themselves - and any dog can, and will, experience all three situations throughout its life. It's not just one type that a dog can have.  I like to think of redirected aggression as a form of a loss of control by a dog. A dog is frustrated at ______, is super aroused, barking, whale-eyed, and you simply try to get the dog's attention, or are standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, and BAM - the dog bites you. Often the dog doesn't even realize that it bit you until it's over. That's how I actually received the redirected bite from the GSD I worked with at a boarding kennel.

And I agree about complexity. Gaci's aggression stemmed from more than one avenue. On the one hand, she is a control freak, and at the other end she has trouble handling her own emotions, she is a highly emotional animal. The two didn't really go all that well together. Her controlling aspects come out in policing play between Zipper and Shimmer, controlling greetings, controlling general interactions (you may bath me, but only when I say so), controlling where other dog are.......and her emotionality comes out in (well, everything!!!) that if she's losing control, she will be quite aroused over it, or if she's not in control and she wants it you can clearly tell (I always laugh, although I shouldn't, because you can just about hear her "But mom, mommmmmmmmmmmmmm, she's there, and, well, I want to be there, and.....tell her to move! What??!? She just made a dirty face at me! Moommmmmmmmmmmm....I'm going to get her back.";).

And on the third hand comes an underlying fear response to human strangers.....pair a fearful, control-interested, emotional animal, and you get an awfully strange situation. LOL. And I'm not making her sound unique because she's my dog, many people have been mystified at her behaviours around people and other dogs. Each behaviour on its own can be explained, but when you try to put them together into the same dog, it gets strange. The first time she met my agility instructor, all she could say was "Isn't that interesting". She's a complicated lady (whereas Shimmer's issues are quite simple, although not easy) and has not been easy to figure out, even by experienced dog folks who come from all sorts of philosophical backgrounds. For a long time she's been an impulsive act-first, think later dog (and in some ways still is in her environment in how she interacts with it....it is a double edged sword when it comes to things like agility but it's also what makes her such a joy and so funny), and it's been a lot of work to build other skills. You really have to know how to deal with her because it can be totally different when she's confident/controlling/angry than it is when she is anxious/aroused/fearful (and all combinations in between!).

But at the same time, she's my heart dog, the dog I've had the deepest connection with; I can read her like a book, and can now handle her pretty much with my eyes closed. I can hold entire conversations with people while at the same time distracting her, giving her cues, using my body, keeping her focused, and generally out of trouble. I wouldn't be nearly the trainer I am without having shared my life with her, as she's made me question everything and learn new ways to do everything. She is also the dog I know that will truly take a part of me with her when she leaves this world and will hit me hard.

So I truly understand complexity when it comes to aggression. I've experienced many types of aggression, between the boarding kennel, growing up in a home of upwards of 10 intact animals at a time in one home,  being involved in general dog circles, and now becoming a trainer as a career, there are few issues that are more complex. Aggression is such a huge topic that it can't be defined in one sentence, and for every "classic" example out there, there is one that is the exact opposite and goes against everything that you would expect.

It is an interesting discussion because we come from different places.  I'm guessing that you see most of the reactive, redirected, fearful type aggression that is common in shelters or when people come to a training club for help with the dog's behavior.  Whereas when I go to SchH club I am seeing dogs that were purposefully bred to possess this genetic type of calm, clear, raw aggression.  I guess it's like being a psychopath (not that I see similarities or think of aggression as bad).  You can be a psychopath and hurt someone, or be a psychopath and not hurt someone, or hurt someone and not be a psychopath...  I think there is more to it than just looking at reactions/behaviors. 

I'm glad people shared their own definitions, whether they are right or wrong or supported by science or anecdotal evidence doesn't really matter to me.  When I say "my dog is aggressive", I'm not looking for unsolicited advice on how to walk my dog past loose dogs in the neighborhood or keep him from attacking friends in my own home, that's not the issue, but that's what many people think of when they hear the word "aggressive".