Assessing drive in a puppy?

 I'd start testing him with his "favorite" toy around more and more distractions.  Like, say, if he's really interested in other people, take him to a park with several people around and see if he's still really interested in his toy.  If he's really really drivey, he'll be way more worried about that toy than anything else.  But, just because he doesn't want to pay attention to the toy with a lot of distraction doesn't necessarily mean he isn't drivey, either.  I have an awesome DVD that is all about building drive and focus, although it is geared more toward schutzhund.  You can get it here... http://leerburg.com/101e.htm  (and yes, I know many of you hate leerburg, but I do like some of the people he does DVDs with).  It's expensive, and very long, but it will teach you good stuff about building drive.

 Thanks for the input already!  I'll certainly check out the DVD - I'm one that's not a fan of Leerburg but I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face lol.  I'm gonna have to do some more observing of his play - I think the tug is the most reliably interesting toy, though he does like his squeaky tennis balls and LOVES killing the wubba and jolly ball on a rope, too.

Keep in mind that a lot of drive is developed and drawn out, so a single assessment might not mean a whole lot.  Nikon is a "show line" dog and I assumed he would not be very drivey but now we are training with someone who has a world class SchH/IPO Malinois (talk about drive it does not GET any drivier than this dog!) and he says Nikon is developing fine as far as his prey, hunt, ball, and food drives.  Work with whatever toy works for you and your dog.  I've bought all the *right* SchH tugs (jute, leather, French linen) and just bought Gappay SchH balls, but lately Nikon's favorite toy as far as drive and motivation is one of those water floating Kongs on a rope that I bought for Kenya (and go figure she has never gone near it).

 Thanks for that clarification!  I've always wondered if the extreme drive I see in working line dogs is all nature or more nurture.

What have you been doing to improve Nikon's drive?

This might help:

 http://malinut.com/ref/write/paws/ 

stardog85

 Thanks for that clarification!  I've always wondered if the extreme drive I see in working line dogs is all nature or more nurture.

What have you been doing to improve Nikon's drive?

It is both.  I see it like this - the extreme high point and low point of a dog's drive is capped by genetics/nature, but the nuture aspect will determine whether you maximize the dog's drive or squash it. That is why SchH people and many SAR people prefer a working line dog, it's easier to bring out the drive, and it's easier to train and motivate a dog with strong drives.

Take Kenya for example.  She is pure German working lines, mostly west German (known for being very prey driven and handler attentive).  Her father scored high-in-trial doing Schutzhund in Germany and has perfect scores in some phases.  Her mother is also working lines and my breeder put nine new titles on her after she acquired her "late" in life (a lot of dogs will "retire" by age 7 or so).  Kenya's half siblings and cousins excel in SchH and some do more advanced police work.  Kenya, however, will not play tug with a piece of raw meat.  Genetically, it's all there, but when she was young she did not do any activities to encourage her drives.  The breeder did not do tug games then (but since then has changed and uses tug all the time).

As far as Nikon's drives, when he was a tiny pup we did things like feeding him one meal in an expen outside, just scattering the kibbles.  This imprints their "hunt" drive, keeping their noses to the groun to "find" stuff.  Many people start on scent pads and puppy tracks as early as 6-8 weeks.  I imagine that would be something that could be beneficial for a SAR dog.  For prey drive and getting him more fixated on toys and tugs, we backtie (harness the dog and attach him to something stationary) or have someone be a "post" and hold the line while someone else works the dog.  Ball drive is a great example of something that often takes time.  GSDs are slow to mature, slower to develop a ball drive, and are not as possessive of their toys as other breeds.  Ball drive for GSDs is often something that has to be drawn out.  Nikon was not at all interested in balls for a long time.  I finally got him interested in a SchH ball on a string and we have been developing that so we can use it as a motivator and reward for the obedience phase.  Since wanting to possess the ball is important, we don't train dogs to "out" (drop it) for a long time.  If I'm playing fetch with him, I simply have two toys rather than trying to get the ball back.

 Thanks for the link Agile!  I ran through it with laddy just now and he's scoring EXC consistently with his tuggy as the target toy.  There were only two scenarios he was borderline OK. :)

I can tell I'm going to be doing lots of reading on this whole drive thing. :)

 I hear you on the herding drive thing - it's so interesting to learn via the BC Boards I'm on about how it develops and what they do to encourage it w/o pushing too hard.

Laddy started "herding" a big playground ball he found in a ditch near our house today - hilarious!

 Put it this way - from the time my little witch was 10 weeks old, she was hanging on to that f-r-i-s-b-e-e for dear life, and at the age of a year she was hanging on to it while I was swinging her around me, just like the state cop Malinois at the annual K-9 demo at the fair.  She always herded bottles, or wanted to tug things.  And, you could see the intensity in her when she was just a little sh*&.  Now, if I give her a tennis ball, she wants THAT ONE for the rest of the day, and will do anything to get it.  When I fling the frisbee and it gets stuck in a branch over her head, she climbs the bush to get at it, and pays no attention to the prickers, or anything else, until she gets the thing back.  She will work and work and work until you tell her to stop, no matter what the task is.  Most people don't want something quite that focused, but I can see where she would be able to do almost any job that a dog is capable of doing.  She's a great demo dog for my classes, 'cuz she never gets tired.

 Ok so describe how that high drive girly looked at 10 weeks in more depth. ;) Mr. Laddy does hang onto his tuggy like none other, but gets distracted by other toys or the girls fairly frequently.  He's intense on the toy when we're actively tugging and he's "in the zone" but his "in the zone" periods are pretty short (though also frequent lol).  I have no idea how that compares to other dogs as he's the youngest pup I've ever had. :)

I have no experience with herding dogs, but to me from a SchH perspective, a high drive puppy is going to see the toy or prey object come out an immediately fixate on it (preferably lunging and barking).  When he gets to take a bite, he holds on for dear life.  If the grip is bad (front), he counters to full grip (but doesn't chew on the toy).  Basically he holds onto that toy until you have to choke him off of it.  You can lift him off the ground, pretend to hit him, cover his eyes, rub all over his body and he is hanging on.  If he does get off, he wants to get right back on.  Good tugging is with a full grip (mouth is full of the toy, down to the back teeth, not just biting with the front) and the dog is sitting his butt down, arching his back and throwing his weight into the tug (when I get this kind of tugging, I slowly move into the dog, to let him think he's "winning" and pulling me forward).  You want him to not really be distracted by other dogs, toys, or food (there are certain toys where if I offer Nikon food he just rolls his eyes and tugs harder), but again if he has it there genetically, he can be trained to the point of not being as distracted.  For SchH we are also looking for dogs that will keep a hard, but calm grip (meaning the dog is not being frantic and out of control in his tugging, but is gripping full and holding steady).

Here is a puppy that's got some nice tug work going on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aO0ayIefBg

Another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zN3Bkky8es

Here is the first pup again at 6 months doing the foundation prey work for bite work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYYuhI8gCCY

If you need the food/hunt drive, here is a 4 month old on a puppy track (dunno about SAR but for SchH the dog's nose must be deep in the track, no air scenting)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q28I0TJUls

Liesje

I have no experience with herding dogs, but to me from a SchH perspective, a high drive puppy is going to see the toy or prey object come out an immediately fixate on it (preferably lunging and barking).  When he gets to take a bite, he holds on for dear life.  If the grip is bad (front), he counters to full grip (but doesn't chew on the toy).  Basically he holds onto that toy until you have to choke him off of it.  You can lift him off the ground, pretend to hit him, cover his eyes, rub all over his body and he is hanging on.  If he does get off, he wants to get right back on.  Good tugging is with a full grip (mouth is full of the toy, down to the back teeth, not just biting with the front) and the dog is sitting his butt down, arching his back and throwing his weight into the tug (when I get this kind of tugging, I slowly move into the dog, to let him think he's "winning" and pulling me forward).  You want him to not really be distracted by other dogs, toys, or food (there are certain toys where if I offer Nikon food he just rolls his eyes and tugs harder), but again if he has it there genetically, he can be trained to the point of not being as distracted.  For SchH we are also looking for dogs that will keep a hard, but calm grip (meaning the dog is not being frantic and out of control in his tugging, but is gripping full and holding steady).

 Thanks for posting those videos! I have a new puppy and she already strongly prefers tugging over treats - will not let go of her tug for food or another tug and when she "wins" she trots around with with the toy in her mouth, doesn't want to let go. She is about 11 weeks old and "came with" a strong tug drive. I agree that if this ACD pup has a natural tug drive at this age but gets distracted, it can certainly be developed. Do you know if he came from a background where tugging was encouraged/discouraged? Some of that can also contribute to him being easily distracted too.

A new puppy?!  Do tell!!

Another thing that comes up is what amount of drive you are looking for and what drives you are looking for.  There was another thread around here recently about drive and what it is.  It means different things to different people.  I personally will not say "oh that dog has drive!" unless the dog has actually been trained, developed, and tested in activities specifically designed to encourage and test the dog's drive.  That's why I don't really care for 5 minute puppy tests.  I'm always intrigued when I hear people refer to their dog as having a lot of drive when the examples are some intermediate obedience and playing with toys or fetch at home.  The drive can be drawn out over time, and at least in working GSDs there is a lot of frustration that goes hand in hand with drive, and it's not fair to put that much pressure on a young pup right away, nor will you get a clear assessment.  This is why SchH people look at genetics, pedigree, and the performance of a dog's relatives for at least some perspective on how the dog will work.  A good example is a Czech or DDR GSD.  Now this is a generalization, but many of these dogs are slower to mature.  As young dogs they are very suspicious.  They are harder dogs that when mature, work a lot in defense drive and often have less prey drive to begin with than west German/Dutch/Belgian line dogs.  So a person getting one of these dogs as a top SchH prospect knows going in that this dog is going to progress very differently and need more encouragement here and less pressure there than another dog of the same breed but different lines.

Drive is not to be confused with stamina, energy, hyperness, etc.  I don't look at drive as how long a dog can "go" and "work" because in my sports (Schutzhund and Dog Sport) we don't really need a dog to work ALL day or even more than a few short bursts at a time.  Quality over quantity.  How intense, focused, and ready to burst like a bubble is the dog in the time frame and activity that YOU define? 

As far as how I see drive, I see the best examples in world class agility dogs at the start line, world class SchH dogs in their protection and obedience phases, and HGH herding dogs (a 55lb dog moving 1000 sheep takes some courage and drive!).