Stacking issue

does he NEED to be hand stacked? Will he stack himself properly? If he is made properly and will stand naturally four square or at least square in front...then I'd just train him to free stack....is your breed one where handlers fuss a lot with them while being judged? I know some are and others it's almost never done.

I would probably say something like a Happy Legs may help for muscle memory..either one you buy or one you make yourself.

Yes in the SV ring they are always hand stacked, with the exception of maybe when the judge reads the critique (but at this point the dog has been rated and placed so the final presentation isn't going to matter). I suppose it's possible for the dog to walk right into a free stack during the stand for exam (I think some of the working class dogs pretty much stack on their own) but he's nowhere near that point yet even with me (let alone in the SV ring he will always be handled by a stranger).  There is absolutely no baiting or luring done, it's all very rigid and matter-of-fact.

Is the Happy Legs the thing where they stand on a can?

yes, wooden posts on a magnetic surface so you can slide them around to the proper formation for your dog.

 Just found the website.  $200?  I think I'll try with some canned beans and a phone book!

Lol I don't blame you...just be SURE whatever you use is completely stable. Nothing worse than scaring a dog by placing it on something that teeters or moves under them.

Well, the cans were NOT stable, lol!  But he didn't care (this is a dog who was jumping into my office chair that leans, rolls, and spins), he kept trying to get his paws back on them for treats.  Instead, I found two cinder blocks.  The front one is set perpendicular to his body and the back one is angled so that I can get the right GSD stack in the rear.  For as hyper and active as he is he is not the least bit put off by a stand stay, even on cinder blocks or wobbly cans.

 This seems to actually be a common issue in GSDs. If you were baiting him, it could be fixed by holding the collar high up on his neck and baiting down. That should cause him to pull himself up and use his neck more. If that works, there could be ways of using that and working towards the behavior you want.

 Oh boy!! That's Logan's favorite way to stack.... rocking back!  I feel your pain, this drives me BATTY!

 My handler stacks him, collar up, lures (as AGSD said), which absolutely works.  I more or less trained him that way (I did it wrong, the luring forward isn't bad but by allowing the rocking back in the first place was.)... which was unfortunate LOL.  Another handler showed him for me once put his show collar high on his neck, reached through so her hand was pretty well attached, grabbed the skin in his jowl/neck/cheek area and held on while he bucked like a bronco.  She held him there... stacked, he bucked. She didn't fight the bucks... just didn't let her hand free. This was not pinching him.. just hanging on. Kinda think standing there ignoring a 2 yrs old who is throwing a tantrum. Whatever he did she held on.. the moment he held still for even a fraction of a second... a cookie would magically appear.  He even through a few bucks in the ring, had a minor "disagreement" with this handler lol  (He still went BOW/BOS! ... color me surprised!) but, he "got it" and by the time then went in for BOB he was stacking up just fine in this method.

 This handler said by baiting him forward I was reinforcing the rocking-back = cookies. That made sense for me.  So, he just had to get used to "manhandling"... so we practiced a lot. At first he bucked with me, too.  Then he started relaxing into it, when he realized he wasn't getting away with it and he wasn't getting cookies, he stopped. I can now stack him by just grabbing under his collar and cheek, holding his head in place, stacking him up (you can pull them forward by pulling them forward AND up (under their head). I also sometimes need to get him in the proper stance by placing my left hand at the base of his neck/whither and pushing forward with my left hand and positioning the head properly with the right).  When they do it well... cookies appear.  Eventually you fade the cookies for relaxing... and add them for staying over themselves... which is harder to capture.  It just needs to become more valuable to stand over themselves than not.  So i was "manhandling" a lot for awhile... randomly throughout the day, till the point it became less and less problematic. If it sounds like this is at all painful, then I've described it incorrectly, I guess it's a way to desensitize to get the dog used to being handled.  IT SHOULD NOT HURT YOUR DOG (maybe their ego a little at not being able to do what they want....  other than that, not at all! :o)

Now (my first/main handler) can stack... then baits to rock forward and keep the alert look.  So, I don't know how it works in your breed but it sounds like you may be standing behind and presenting with your right hand under his neck/head?

I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense... not easy to describe at all!!

I guess my question is how to use the food to reward the experience without reinforcing the habbit?  If I stack him and keep having to re-place his feet to get the front right, he starts to shut down and hunch more, making it worse and worse.  Lately I've been trying to do it quickly, and then reward him for keeping his head up and holding a stand-stay without being too critical of the front.  If I spend a lot of time correcting the front, the final picture kinda sucks anyway b/c by then he is really annoyed with me and hanging his head.

I've tried using the collar to control his head more and it seems to make it worse, he pulls back against the collar even harder and hangs his head lower.  If it matters, he must be shown on a Fursaver or Fursaver puppy pulling collar on a dead ring, no choking/live rings.

I don't know if it matters but they are usually presented with the handler standing or squating behind the dog.  Sometimes with the older dogs the handler will step out of the picture (literally, b/c they are getting their pics taken as the critique is read).  I'm told often the handler has the thumb of their right hand hooked in the collar.  No baiting.  If the dog freestacks, that's fine, but you will not see the handler moving the dog into a free stack, he either does it right there or is placed.  I've never seen a hander step out in front of the dog, only behind the dog for the picture.

Some examples from NASS

NASS 2008 Siegerin, looks like she is doing what Nikon likes to do

Walter Kotters presenting a dog.  He is a well known professional handler from Germany.

I'm tempted to just forget about it for now.  At the Sieger Show he will be called from the front (by me) and I assume that can only better my chances.  His handler has 25 years of experience.  I'm hoping the combination of the two will correct the problem in the ring and after that I can go back to working on it at home.

 When I got Keela, she had a real problem with being positioned on the table. I thought she was afraid of the judges approaching the table, but it wasn't. She had been handled by someone prior to me getting her, and they would hold her head very firmly to stack her on the table. She's headstrong and hates being made to do something. It basically came down to a 'don't force me, ask me' problem. I don't think she understood what she was being made to do, so therefore she would shut down and hunch up and the handler would get even more forceful with her and compounded the problem. She's a smart girl, but hates to be forced into something.

When I finally figured out that if I showed her what I wanted without forcing, then asked her, we made huge progress. Of course, this meant loads of treats for small positive steps and the clicker. I made it fun, and it made all the difference. I didn't even start out the training session with stacking, it was stupid fun stuff that was clicked and rewarded.

I also had to change how I handled her head and front feet when I went to stack her on the table. We spent weeks of just clicking for relaxing while I held her head, then her feet. Again, I made it fun and used really 'out there' treats. We moved on to holding her head while she stood on the table, then placing her feet. Originially, she would just shut down and hunch up and look at me with this miserable look. Now, she sees the table and the lead and turns into a jumping maniac wanting up on the table for 'fun time' with me.

Even though he needs to stack a certain way for the show, maybe back up and come at the problem from a different angle. Train him into what you want instead of asking for it at the outset.

And I'm not saying Nikon's been forced or made fearful or anything like that, I'm just saying that is what Keela's problem was. But to help Nikon stop hunching up, maybe he's not understanding what your wanting? Just throwing some thoughts out there. I know how troubling it can be dealing with something like this.

Good luck with him! I look forward to reading about your adventures in the different show rings. :)

Amy

Liesje

Walter Kotters presenting a dog.  He is a well known professional handler from Germany.

Ok, perfect!! That's kind of how I end up with Logan, right hand holding/presenting the dogs head, they should be comfortable leaning forward into it.  Granted I look NOTHING like this... I am by far *not* a professional handler LOL  I just tried to get him to the point that my handler would have an easier time.  It took awhile for him to build confidence that it was correct, so for awhile we were also needing to present his tail (weims should have tail in the 3o'ck position).

stardancnminpin

Even though he needs to stack a certain way for the show, maybe back up and come at the problem from a different angle. Train him into what you want instead of asking for it at the outset.

And I'm not saying Nikon's been forced or made fearful or anything like that, I'm just saying that is what Keela's problem was. But to help Nikon stop hunching up, maybe he's not understanding what your wanting? Just throwing some thoughts out there. I know how troubling it can be dealing with something like this.

No, I think you are right.  He doesn't know what I want and having to do too much manual placement and/or controlling his head only makes it worse for him.  I'm not sure about other breeds but at least with a GSD it doesn't matter if you are literally hanging the dog from his show collar, if HE is not the one willingly holding his head up he will look like crap.  Especially in the SV ring where they are looking to see dogs that are driving from the rear when gaiting and almost pushing forward when stacking (hence the gazillion laps of gaiting and all the double handling going on).

So, getting back to the first paragraph I quoted, is it OK to mark and reward simply for him allowing me to place him *somewhat* and having him hold some short stand-stays with his head up?  That's basically my question.  He will stand and he will hold his head up on his own but he's always somewhat posting/bridging with the front legs, so I feel like if I'm rewarding him for simply holding still I'm also reward that position and developing the wrong muscle memory.  But it's a Catch 22 b/c I'm not sure how to make stacking in general a fun and rewarding thing when it takes so much work to get the stack itself looking correct.

He did not have the slightest bit of hesitation stacking up on the bricks, so I think at this point I'll give that one more try, see if I can somehow use the bricks to improve the front.  If not, maybe I'll back off for now and see how he does with his handler in April.

I'm probably over analyzing everything b/c I am nervous about next month!  There were no club shows before the Sieger show (SV shows MUST be outdoors and outdoors for WI/IL/MI/IN is frozen icey tundra) so I've had no chance to try him out in the SV ring.  He did 4 AKC/UKC puppy matches and did fine, but they weren't really judging stacks, moreso the dog's temperament and the movement.  I've never met his Sieger show handler but she is someone who I've wanted to meet b/c I am interested in her dogs and her program so I was thrilled to see she had an opening for Nikon's class.  I e-mailed her to let her know that she will need patience because I'm a total noob and so far we've only had one opportunity for SV style ring training!

Sera_J

Liesje

Walter Kotters presenting a dog.  He is a well known professional handler from Germany.

 

Ok, perfect!! That's kind of how I end up with Logan, right hand holding/presenting the dogs head, they should be comfortable leaning forward into it.  Granted I look NOTHING like this... I am by far *not* a professional handler LOL  I just tried to get him to the point that my handler would have an easier time.  It took awhile for him to build confidence that it was correct, so for awhile we were also needing to present his tail (weims should have tail in the 3o'ck position).

 

Yeah we're lucky with the tails, they just flop!  Though some dogs want to hold them out or wag them.  And even though the rear is stacked differently than other breeds it's not too difficult, we can use it to our advantage depending on the dog's strengths and weaknesses or what type of ring we are showing in.  It's just the dang front I am SO picky about b/c so many, if not most west German show lines have poor fronts.  I'm not saying Nikon's is any better but I certainly don't want him getting away with making it look even worse!

So, getting back to the first paragraph I quoted, is it OK to mark and reward simply for him allowing me to place him *somewhat* and having him hold some short stand-stays with his head up?  That's basically my question.  He will stand and he will hold his head up on his own but he's always somewhat posting/bridging with the front legs, so I feel like if I'm rewarding him for simply holding still I'm also reward that position and developing the wrong muscle memory.  But it's a Catch 22 b/c I'm not sure how to make stacking in general a fun and rewarding thing when it takes so much work to get the stack itself looking correct.

From my experience with Keela, I would say it is perfectly okay to mark and reward for him *somewhat* holding his stand stay with his head up. Small steps lead to the ultimate goal. As he gets more comfortable, you can ask for more until you have him where you want. Getting him to enjoy all aspects of showing is really important. Truthfully, if he isn't enjoying himself - neither will you.

Rehabbing Keela was a challenging and rewarding experience, but I wish I hadn't had to. Learning to handle her so she shines has made me a better handler, but I had to learn what made her tick. Learn what makes Nikon tick and what he enjoys doing. Combine that with his stack training and you'll have a happy dog in the ring.

Just take it in small steps. I don't know if you have ever read this site, but it is worth the read (even though it is looonnnngggg ) through Stitch's blog. Very enlightening.  And the page that will help you the most, is this one on conformation stacking. It got me through Keela's reluctance to having her head manhandled, and once we conquered that, it was smooth sailing.

Amy