Herding Instinct Test - Questions

I would contact someone who has a farm and gives herding lessons.  The formal tests I've heard of/gone to have been for herding breeds, but someone who is a herding instructor can test whatever dogs they please. 

I have HICs on all of my Ridgebacks.   First one was gotten at an all breed show, I paid my entry and waited for them to call me, it was Friday the 13, I sat there wondering , if Miranda decided to eat the sheep instead of herd it, would they #1 take credit cards to pay for the lost sheep ? #2 Did I have enough room in my ice chests for all the mutton? #3 Would I have to clean it???  

Happily I discovered then and have found since, the Shepareds are really decent about letting you try if your dog seems calm enough to work with. Be prepared , if your dog sbecomes overly excited and rough the shepard will protect the flock with his staff and you will have to remove your animal. I have seen this happen with all breeds including Herding Breeds.   Best thing would be to bring him by the testing rings and allow him to get used to the process , and have the Shepard speak with you before paying for a trial.  If he / she thinks the dog will not manage well they are pretty honest.

Best of Luck!

Bonita of Bwana

Bonita you are exactly right.  A well known AHBA judge smacked Kenya in the face with a rake, lol.

Here's part of her herding test.  It's kind of boring since she does a lot of talking to me and we aren't really herding, but it was a good test.  Each person got at least 20 minutes (I cut out a lot of ours for the vid) and she tested each dog very differently depending on their level of interest and level of obedience.  Lol, Kenya is eating sheep poop at the beginning.  51 seconds in is where she gets smacked for going straight in at the sheep.  After that she was a bit wary of the judge and the stick (yeah she's a softy).  The judge said our main problem is we've done so much obedience that Kenya isn't totally comfortable working out in front of me.  She said Kenya was very good at predicting the sheep ("heady" I think she called it) and before the video started I demonstrated I could move her in either direction on either side of me (some obedience dogs simply won't do anything on the right).  She needs more confidence getting the sheep moving, but the judge said her sheep are so used to dogs they can tell a green dog and won't budge so if we took lessons Kenya should start on ducks or reactive sheep.

http://www.vimeo.com/1097792

Most folks are going to limit it to herding breeds or herding heritage in the breeds.  You would be better off contacting someone who trains and just as if they will evaluate a dog.  None of the herding clubs will do this for non herding breeds.  You wont get a certificate, but you would get answers.

 I'm gonna be trying Herding this year with Maze. I saw it last year and it looks like Maze would do good once she realized the sheep aren't gonna eat her. Lol!

There is a dog show coming up In Perry Ga that is awesome, the show site is enormous, clean and state of the art it is at the Agra center. That 4 day weekend will also have several breed specialties and as many as 100+ excellent vendors. I love this show!!  The RV parking is the best , there is a restaurant on grounds, there will often be a horse show among other events.  But the very best of it is along with conformation, obedience and agility, they will have an open HIC clinic...any breed as long as the dog seems biddable. I have seen the herding breeds from shelties to terriers to the big dogs. I have laughed so hard I cried watching someone try to get their afghan to herd it was hysterical... I have also seen the Shepard take the business end of his staff to rotties and gsds that were misbehaving.

They will also allow different breeds to lure course there , not for points but the enthusiasm is it's own reward. Our Rescued Lab was clocked fastest dog several times because she simply stuck the bunny, never swerving or swinging out, no wasted steps.  Just a big heart and woo woo wooing happily as she ran full out and strong.   They host a fun zone, sort of a mini obstacle course, a Go To Ground , I know there are more things that I have forgotten, but the point is they fun that can be had at many of these huge shows can not be beaten easily. (We get to do the same things plus more at the Ridgeback Rodeo.  ) The trick as I have seen it at different sites in different states is to be really flexible, show up chat and hang out, ask intelligent questions and ask if you can try what ever the event is , during a down moment... be ready to stick around all day if need be.  Smiling happy people draw crowds,  and great attitudes prompt a positive response back at you .

With non herding breeds most Shepards introduce the dog on a long line, they have you and your pup move the sheep clockwise then counter ... some Shepards will take your dog off line others will simply lengthen it until they are satisfied the pup can work and has the instincts needed for the job. Most will bring only sheep for the HIC...  you will never rgret trying it out...and I have great mutton recepies if you need them !!

Bonita of Bwana     

 AHBA allows general working breeds. There was a rottie at the last AHBA trial I went to. He was pretty good too! And yes, neiko has received a few whacks on the nose as well

Bonita, do you know when that show is going to be? And do you have a link to a website?

To all others - thanks for the comments and advice. I'm not terribly concerned with Misha getting poked at by a stranger (though I perhaps I should be) because I think he milks it when he knows the people and he seems really into sheep. 

Hmmm I am pretty sure it is in mid April, Go to Onofrio.com and you can pull  up upcoming shows (this is  the Perry Ga show). It is one awesome show and we plan on being there... If you decide to come let's get together!!  We will be there in my RV and would love to hang out. if you are new to showing we would happily give you the "tour".  We have a great time, there is always at least one cook out there for friends. Lot's of dog friendly motels etc...

we are going to shoot for Zion's HIC and the Raptor's ( twin RRs) JCs... I will be showing two. It is a great place for bikes and hanging out.  We also go here for the HUGE RV rally every year, It is a great place to hang out and be in the company of Dogs. Tons of reasonably cool places nearby...

Bonita of Bwana

Correction,  the AHBA does not allow general working breeds.  The AHBA allows dogs of other AKC groups that have a herding heritage.  That means Sami's, rotts, schnauzers, etc are allowed.  There are some folks working to get the Kerry Blue accepted.  There must be documentation from the early days, origins of the breed for it to be considered for herding competition and certificates. 

Occassionally, any breed herding instinct opportunities may occur (local events in most cases).  If you have a dog you wish to evaluate, you will likely have to go private.  I assure you most people are fairly limited in what they are willing to try (with respect to herding instinct), despite the fact an AKC herding rep has a herding papillion.

Most herding is limitted to herding dogs for a reason.  There are two critical traits that need to be hard wired for herding.  One is balance.  This is an innate skill in the dog to move to a point of balance between the THREE components of  the process, the dog, the sheep, the handler.  The dog should naturally move to maintain a relationship with the handler in relation to the sheep.  It is not just about moving away form pressure.  The second and far more important trait is biddability.  This is the personality component that has the dog recognize that there are always three parts to this "game".  The influence of the handler (when in the right place, at the right time, applying the right amount of pressure) helps the dog understand the task and work as a team to complete it.  This is often accomplished in small steps when the dogs do not come from actively working lines.  However the base traits and skills are there.

Dogs who chase are not herding.  Dogs who avoid are not herding.  Can any dog be taught responses to herding commands?  Sure a friend of mine actually had an otter hound who could have titled on A course (arena).  But he sure was not a herding dog, just one who did a very good job of following commands quickly.  It was not about instinct.  This dog lived with sheep and dogs that did herd all the time.

 Bonita, it seems to be going on from April 9 - 11. Unfortunately that starts on a Thursday, but maybe I'll save up some "mental health" days and travel down that was Thursday afternoon. It also depends on what my friend who has Misha right now is doing then. I'll definitely let you know if we'll be going down there, though. I'd love to meet you!

mrv, Misha is a mix. He's mostly Great Pyrenees, so I'm fairly certain he doesn't want to eat the sheep. He shows a great interest in both sheep and goats, but he's never been in a situation where I can tell what his intentions are. Being that he's a mix, there's also a possibility that he has Aussie in him (Aussie or GSD, Papa can't remember) - though a doubt a drop of herding in all that guarding blood will make him a herder. I just want to see, in a controlled enviroment, how he behaves around them. He's a dog that would flourish if given a job, I'm just trying to figure out what job to give him.

I agree with the concept that herding breeds are a different type of dog, and that it shows up in the bloodlines and genes of the descendents. But you are not 100% target about the chasing dog being unable to herd. I was pretty amazed by my furkids and RRs are totally chase and prey driven beasties. The shepard allowed mine off lead very quickly , They were able to keep the sheep moving in the directions needed and honestly my kids are not the most responsive in following commands when having a great old time.  The shepard gave instruction the dogs quickly figured out what was asked for and I just tried to stay on my feet  ( sheep are naught mangy things and happy to knock you on your buns) .

I had a tremendous experience in New Zealand at the Agradome, they have live 26 different types of sheep and they come in on a stage each going to the correct slot for the breed. After the sheep come out and a presentation is given they bring in the herding dogs. Talk about intense whoooweee.  They race in responding to whistles and hand signals running across the backs of the sheep , stopping on a dime to settle into a down on a huge ram's back !!  Later outside they work the sheep as they would in a trial , think BABE... thru gates etc etc..

The great fun is that the dogs and owner work so wonderfully well , and that as you said there is an instinct that can be seen and felt.

I see nothing wrong with any breed trying... thinking of the DNA test results  a sweet little fuzzy muttling from a shelter gets tagged as the descendant of Irish Wolfhounds, Pointers and Dacshunds ???  IF there is really any truth to the testing I would think it would show in the dog's ability to take up the challenges the original bloods faced.

Bonita of Bwana

To clarify:  Herding is an adaptation of the hunting instinct in canines.  Chasing is part of prey drive, another companion behavior in that constellation of hunting.  Hunting instinct has been refined over time to meet human needs.  You see it in the actual hunters (terriers, hounds) and in the gun dogs.  There is considerable variation between those two behaviors.  The chase is to kill in one set and to retrieve in the other.  Chasing sheep is more about prey drive than it is herding.  

To determine if an animal has herding instinct there has to be clear and absolute awareness on the part of the dog that this is a three "person" activity.  I have seen plenty of herding dogs who chase and to whom biddability is a foreign concept right down to their genes. 

I will admit that any human dog team with a good training relationship can develop behaviors that "look" like herding (regardless of breed).  That is likely a great demonstration of biddability but does not indicate the other very critical components of balance and  "reading" stock.  This is a behavior in the rough at the beginning, but a dog with true instinct changes right before your eyes.  I can only see it about half of the time.  The folks from whom I take lessons and clinics, can determine if there is really something there in less than a minute.  Almost as fast as the sheep can read the dog (such as the description of Kenya with well dogged sheep).

As to Misha,  the GP heritage does not really contain herding behavior.  They move with the flock, not move the flock themselves.  The aussie might off set that, but it would remain to be seen.  If you are looking for a job,  unless you have a fair amount of disposable income, time and the ability to travel to muliple locations, herding is more like a vacation.  Even serious hobby herders LIVE for the sport.  Everything is secondary (when in comes to the dog activity).  You can dabble, but it really wont be a job.  I would suggest you consider carting.  That may offer far more options for daily work.

 Probably Misha would pass an instinct test from what I've seen.  Let's just say it says less about Misha's actual potential as a "herding" dog and more about the relevance of the "instinct test" concept to real working ability and breeding. 

In my opinion there's no way to "test" instinct other than to train a  dog up to the level where you can see all the "pieces" are in place - and that's long, long after the point where a dog is "showing sustained interest" or "chasing."  There's so much more to it than that. 

In the BC world there just isn't any such thing as the instinct test - you just have first or second or third lessons and the instructor at some point says to you that in their opinion it would be worth your while to keep coming.  And sometimes you might get even further along, maybe even your first few trials, and realize your dog just doesn't have all the pieces.

You'd be welcome to come up here and we can give it a shot.  I am not an expert and I can't issue a certificate, but I can point you to someone who will be happy to continue with you, who works with any dog that will show sustained interest.  She's a friend of mine and uses all positive methods so if he's not really into it there's no harm done. 

And, if he really doesn't want to, carting is actually a good idea.  I think you'd make a good team for that.