Tracking Question

I would use food that is good enough to really get his food/hunt drive going, he really has to want it.  Luckily with Nikon, a hot dog or even some kibble is enough for that, as long as we are in a pretty big area where distractions are farther off.

Also, if you go back to just the scent pad, pull him off before he finds all the food.  Sort of like how with Nikon when we do ragwork, I put the rag away before he gets tired or bored of it.  You want to quit while the dog is still in drive and wanting to find the food.  I'm not sure how this applies to a track since Nikon is just on scent pads.

We didn't do any tracking or pads early on, but as a wee pup I fed Nikon at least one "meal" a day on the ground, by scattering kibbles in his pen or making a trail on the carpet or in the grass.  If he didn't nose for food, he didn't get it.  The breeder also fed the litter like this in an expen outside.  We would just pour in a pail of food and let them go.  Not so little that they would fight, but doing some free feeding like this made it a little more competitive for them and they worked their noses hard to get as much as they wanted.

 Ok, not sure if this will help for a schutzhund track, but one of my SAR teammates likes a specific exercise for teaching dogs to keep their noses *in* the track as that can be essential on windy days where scent may blow way off course.

Here's what they do:

 - send "victim" out into an area with tall grass or heavy leaf cover

- have the "victim" shuffle/scuff their feet for the *entire* track (so that the actual path is visible to you)

- start the dog at the beginning of the scuffs (or if using a scent article like I do, scent the dog before the start and then allow them to pick it up themself)

- when the dog is on track, keep moving at their pace

- as SOON as the dog's head comes up or they go off the track, stop and stand dead still until they return to the track, then start moving again.

- Reward heavily at the end of the track to encourage drive to the end (or "victim" in my case)

I did this with Z and she very quickly got the idea and stayed on track, head down, actively working about 80% of the time, despite having very little formal tracking training.

I've been using hotdogs, which he'll normally do anything for (and I mean anything!).  He is not a picky dog about food in the first place, but he only gets hotdogs when we do tracking work.  I don't think it is because he doesn't want the food, but I can try something different.  I also don't think he lacks drive on the track (actually, I think he has TOO much!).  My biggest problem is getting him to slow down and really stay ON the track, not a foot or two away.  He literally runs down the track with his nose down, but he zig-zigs back and forth (in probably a 5 foot path), but he always finds the end (with turns and such thrown in, as well).  He'll just get horrible scores that way, I'm afraid.  He's not a pretty tracker at all.  Do you think there is any way to slow him down besides just holding him back physically?  I've tried that, too, but then he gets confused and just looks up at me.  : /  He was doing very well with the tracking early on, but it's like he finally just "got it" and now just wants to get it done for some reason.

 Doesn't SAR use mostly air scenting?  I'd always thought they did, but I'm not sure.  As I said above, though, he does the track fairly well, it's just very "sloppy" and fast. 

Workingdoglover

 Doesn't SAR use mostly air scenting?  I'd always thought they did, but I'm not sure.  As I said above, though, he does the track fairly well, it's just very "sloppy" and fast. 

 

There are both trailing and air scent dogs in SAR, but *every* dog must have a solid tracking/trailing background to work from.  Z will likely go air scent in the end, but right now we're really working on her trailing skills to give her that solid foundation.  From what I understand, air scent dogs that start as air scent w/ no trailing/tracking background are very often limited in their searching abilities because they can't do both, whereas a dog that trails initially but then moves to air scent can use both skills in a real search scenario. Make sense?

Of course in SAR we don't worry about how fast the dog tracks or if they sniff every shoe print as long as they do the job, so I'm not much help in that realm.  As long as a dog stays on scent and working and finds the victim without too much guidance, that's all that matters.  I think the precision you need would drive me up the wall lol. 

That being said, the exercise I mentioned above might at least get him in the track more accurately vs. the 1-2ft off you're seeing.

I honestly don't really see the point in following every footstep either, as long as they're following the track reasonably close...  but, that's how you get the points, and I'd hate for Rafe to not get his SchH I title just because he tracked too fast or something.  Bleh...  I'll definitely try that, though.  We've tried something similar and he seems to really enjoy it.

We have the same attitude at our club.  Our TD trains and handles police dogs, they don't give a rip if the dog is air scenting, cutting corners, etc.  For them it's about finding someone alive, or apprehending the suspect ASAP.  The reality is that a dog can cut corners and air scent and track just as well as any other dog.

But yeah since SchH is a competition, there are points and there has to be ways of determining who is the best, whereas the police dogs are all equal as long as they are trained for their work.  I wish the tracking was more like AKC or even just a pass/fail like the BH (but I suppose people who love tracking would say the same to me about the OB routines!).

Liesje

We have the same attitude at our club.  Our TD trains and handles police dogs, they don't give a rip if the dog is air scenting, cutting corners, etc.  For them it's about finding someone alive, or apprehending the suspect ASAP.  The reality is that a dog can cut corners and air scent and track just as well as any other dog.

But yeah since SchH is a competition, there are points and there has to be ways of determining who is the best, whereas the police dogs are all equal as long as they are trained for their work.  I wish the tracking was more like AKC or even just a pass/fail like the BH (but I suppose people who love tracking would say the same to me about the OB routines!).

 Exactly how I feel!  But oh well, I guess I should stop complaining and get on with the training...lol!  I'd actually heard someone say something about using a target stick to train the dog to have a deep nose and follow each step.  Do you think this would actually work?  I've never seen anyone do that before, or seen a dog trained that way (that I know of), but it is an interesting idea...

 I'm wondering if Steve White's "scent in a bottle" exercise might help - I think it lays much more scent than just shuffling as you lay the track.  And, maybe it would help lay the track closer to the ground so that he isn't as likely to trail because you can direct the spray downward, where if it's a live person laying the track, more crap falls off the body as they move that the dog can hone in on in the air, as opposed to on the ground. 

Maybe also some really different food treats involved to get his nose deep.  My choice would be tripe or liverwurst.  I find that most dogs really, really like tripe, and it is very stinky. 

I don't do Schutzhund style tracking, but I have earned TD's on a half dozen dogs, and gone on to earn TDX's on three of t hem. So, my advice is going to come from the perspective of a less precise style of tracking, but I'm by no means so permissive that I allow my dogs to cut corners by more than a few feet, or wander all over the place, or anything like that.

First of all, no matter what anyone tells you, and no matter how certain they seem, no one, including me, really knows what scent does. But, since what you've been doing for some time isn't working, try something else. Contrary to all the advice you are getting here and from your trainer, I'm going to suggest that maybe the problem is that there is too much scent on the track. Imagine that you walk blindfolded into grandma's house on Thanksgiving afternoon. Yummm! The scent of roasting turkey is everywhere. Now, imagine trying to locate exactly where that scent is coming from. It's probably going to be pretty darned hard, because you are just in the middle of a huge scent cloud, and so it's very hard to pinpoint exactly where the scent is coming from. I know lots of people who use scent in a bottle, scruff tracks, use scent pads, etc, and they are very successful, so I don't want to say that those techniques and tools are of no value, but I also think that often we approach tracking problems from a very anthropomorphic point of view; we assume that since our limitation is the inability to detect the scent, that must be the dog's problem as well. But I've frequently found that dogs do at least as well, or often better, in the beginning stages is we try to avoid overwhelming them with scent.

Here's what I would do, and I honestly can't "promise" that it will work. It's just what I would try. Forget the scent pads. Lay a piece of food about every third or fourth step or so. Let the track age about 15 minutes to a half hour so that a lot of the extraneous body scent has hopefully drifted away. Keep your dog on a short lead - 6 ft or less, and don't let him wander more than that lead length off the track, but don't be too concerned if he does a little quartering, and doesn't sniff every single foot print. If he skips food, don't make him come back for it, but if he overshoots the food by a couple feet and comes back, allow him to do that. I would put a big jackpot at the end. You can put the jackpot in a container so that he can't smell it as much to help prevent him from just air-scenting his way to the article. Putting the food in a container also teaches him that he has to show the partner with the opposable thumbs where the article is if he wants to get his reward. I know you want him to focus on the "journey, not the destination" ;-), but for now the objective is just for him to love finding his article, and to realize that staying close to the track is how he gets the article. Once he is doing straight track of 50 or 60 yds reliably without a lot of zig zagging, I would start spreading out the food, until you may only have one or two food drops along the way. You will probably find that he stays more faithful to the track once there isn't the overwhelming odor of food permeating everything around the track. I realize you are probably cringing at this because I'm really not suggesting you do anything specific to encourage a deep nose. But my experience is that as the dog gains experience, the track gets longer, and the age of the track increases, the dog automatically has to work harder and most dogs become more faithful to the track and develop deeper noses on their own, provided you don't let them do a lot of random wandering and searching, but maintain a short lead. Again, think about yourself trying to follow a track of tiny droplets of perfume across your living room carpet, versus trying to follow that same track if there were bottles and bottles of perfume dumped on the carpet. In the latter case the odor would be so intense and so spread out that it would be difficult to figure out exactly where the odor was originating from.

If you don't already have it, I recommend Enthusiastic Tracking by William (Sil) Sanders. Sil is an AKC tracker, but I've seen his Westies track, and believe me, they are faithful to the track, and very very methodical. Boringly, frustratingly methodical if it is cold and raining and you are waiting for them to finish a track so you can go inside and warm up ;-). I don't follow Sil's protocol precisely, but for a new tracker, I don't think you can go too far wrong with his lesson plans.

Finally, is there a particular reason why you especially have to develop a ScH style of tracking? Are you going for a ScH title? I'm not criticizing their program - I've seen some absolutely fantastic ScH style trackers. But, I don't think it's a style that is suited to all dogs, and hate to see people with perfectly excellent trackers give up on the sport just because their dog doesn't fit one specific style of tracking.

Interesting thread!

Bugsy does the same as Rafe, I have tried to slow him down but he goes at a trail the way he would a live rabbit.  He rarely picks up any food except at the end of the trail, no matter how closely I have placed the pieces or how stinky.  He does sometimes decide to eat them after he gets to the last piece then eat his way back

buster the show dog

I don't do Schutzhund style tracking, but I have earned TD's on a half dozen dogs, and gone on to earn TDX's on three of t hem. So, my advice is going to come from the perspective of a less precise style of tracking, but I'm by no means so permissive that I allow my dogs to cut corners by more than a few feet, or wander all over the place, or anything like that.

First of all, no matter what anyone tells you, and no matter how certain they seem, no one, including me, really knows what scent does. But, since what you've been doing for some time isn't working, try something else. Contrary to all the advice you are getting here and from your trainer, I'm going to suggest that maybe the problem is that there is too much scent on the track. Imagine that you walk blindfolded into grandma's house on Thanksgiving afternoon. Yummm! The scent of roasting turkey is everywhere. Now, imagine trying to locate exactly where that scent is coming from. It's probably going to be pretty darned hard, because you are just in the middle of a huge scent cloud, and so it's very hard to pinpoint exactly where the scent is coming from. I know lots of people who use scent in a bottle, scruff tracks, use scent pads, etc, and they are very successful, so I don't want to say that those techniques and tools are of no value, but I also think that often we approach tracking problems from a very anthropomorphic point of view; we assume that since our limitation is the inability to detect the scent, that must be the dog's problem as well. But I've frequently found that dogs do at least as well, or often better, in the beginning stages is we try to avoid overwhelming them with scent.

Here's what I would do, and I honestly can't "promise" that it will work. It's just what I would try. Forget the scent pads. Lay a piece of food about every third or fourth step or so. Let the track age about 15 minutes to a half hour so that a lot of the extraneous body scent has hopefully drifted away. Keep your dog on a short lead - 6 ft or less, and don't let him wander more than that lead length off the track, but don't be too concerned if he does a little quartering, and doesn't sniff every single foot print. If he skips food, don't make him come back for it, but if he overshoots the food by a couple feet and comes back, allow him to do that. I would put a big jackpot at the end. You can put the jackpot in a container so that he can't smell it as much to help prevent him from just air-scenting his way to the article. Putting the food in a container also teaches him that he has to show the partner with the opposable thumbs where the article is if he wants to get his reward. I know you want him to focus on the "journey, not the destination" ;-), but for now the objective is just for him to love finding his article, and to realize that staying close to the track is how he gets the article. Once he is doing straight track of 50 or 60 yds reliably without a lot of zig zagging, I would start spreading out the food, until you may only have one or two food drops along the way. You will probably find that he stays more faithful to the track once there isn't the overwhelming odor of food permeating everything around the track. I realize you are probably cringing at this because I'm really not suggesting you do anything specific to encourage a deep nose. But my experience is that as the dog gains experience, the track gets longer, and the age of the track increases, the dog automatically has to work harder and most dogs become more faithful to the track and develop deeper noses on their own, provided you don't let them do a lot of random wandering and searching, but maintain a short lead. Again, think about yourself trying to follow a track of tiny droplets of perfume across your living room carpet, versus trying to follow that same track if there were bottles and bottles of perfume dumped on the carpet. In the latter case the odor would be so intense and so spread out that it would be difficult to figure out exactly where the odor was originating from.

If you don't already have it, I recommend Enthusiastic Tracking by William (Sil) Sanders. Sil is an AKC tracker, but I've seen his Westies track, and believe me, they are faithful to the track, and very very methodical. Boringly, frustratingly methodical if it is cold and raining and you are waiting for them to finish a track so you can go inside and warm up ;-). I don't follow Sil's protocol precisely, but for a new tracker, I don't think you can go too far wrong with his lesson plans.

Finally, is there a particular reason why you especially have to develop a ScH style of tracking? Are you going for a ScH title? I'm not criticizing their program - I've seen some absolutely fantastic ScH style trackers. But, I don't think it's a style that is suited to all dogs, and hate to see people with perfectly excellent trackers give up on the sport just because their dog doesn't fit one specific style of tracking.

 This actually makes a lot of sense to me.  I'll definitely be trying this at our next outing!  Funny that no one around me has ever thought of that...  :)  I'll also look up the book.  Thanks for the advice!

 And the ony reason I'm doing SchH style tracking is because I'm going for his SchH I title (hopefully soon).  We already have his BH taken care of, so I'm shooting for a trial in the summer/fall if we can get his tracking in order.  I highly doubt I'd be into this tracking style if it weren't for the title.