Sieger shows/GSD conformation vs. work/obedience test...

Ron, first I have no intention of breeding.  Less than zero interest, lets put it that way!  Hence why I got a male.  Implying that we were picking bitches for an 8 week old puppy is ludicris, the dog is not even house trained yet.  I go to Sieger shows because it's fun, bottom line.  I like going to U2 concerts and hanging out with U2 fans; I like going to Sieger shows and hanging out with dog people.  It's more fun if you have a dog, just like it's kinda lame to hang out at U2 concerts without tickets to the show.  There's no serious training or grooming that goes into these types of shows, at least at the level we are at.  You just show up with your dog, maybe trim his nails and brush him out and that's that.

It seems you are most concerned with temperament and work.  Well, the conformation ring is not and has never been the venue for that, nor does it advertise itself as such.  Hence why I explained that working class dogs must be titled.  If someone is interested in their work they would go watch them work. Yes, structure and conformation IS important.  A dog that is incorrect cannot physically perform the work.   Take Karl Fuller's bitches, for example.  He put HGH titles on them rather than SchH (though they all do bitework and might have SchH titles as well). He is a shepherd himself; his dogs herd all day long.  And we're not talking moving three sheep around some cones and into a pen, we're talking a herd of 1200 head strong sheep where the dog creates a "fence" around the herd and has to move the herd over roads, away from danger, back home, etc.  If a dog is too big, has the wrong hips, etc, she cannot perform this work regardless of how nice her temperament is and how much drive she inherently posseses.  Yes pigment is important too.  For one, GSDs used by police and military are of course trained in aprehension but the reality is that most of the time, a suspect is easily deterred by a dog "watching" (barking, lunging at the suspect).  A light dog just is not as scary.  Also, if we start to let pigment slide, what's next?  It is not in any way a disqualification, as evident by the high rating awarded to Gorbi and the judge specifically stating he was giving Gorbi a high rating despite pigment.  On that day, the judge thought TeeJay had the best progeny group and TeeJay and Leido were better movers. 

I can't really respond to the comments about my breeder as she doesn't yet have her own lines.  She only owns one German male and he is Nikon's brother so obviously has not factored into breeding.  She switched from American to German dogs less than a decade ago.  The bitch she bred to Gorbi is young and is her first homebred German bitch she is now breeding.  If you can point out which "faults" you is as "unsalvageable" I can address those concerns.

As for the comment about evaluating a dog in three days you seem to have missed the part where the show is mainly a point of interest.  No good breeder would attend a show without any prior knowledge or experience with the dogs entered and make breeding decisions simply based on the results of the show.  If you see a bitch you like, mark her down.  Call the owner, schedule a visit.  Go watch her in a SchH trial, etc.  Again, conformation is conformation.  You want to see the dog work, go watch her work.  It's not that difficult.

Liesje

Implying that we were picking bitches for an 8 week old puppy is ludicris, the dog is not even house trained yet.

I thought Nikon was 14 weeks and that you were already starting with the strike stick which is how you got toothed, even though you initially described it as a bite. It sounded like a toothing to me. I agree to a timeline. Potty training. Obedience. Then tracking and protection. But that's just my idea.

Liesje

Hence why I got a male

Call me crazy but I imagine a contract could be written where you get pick of the litter in lieu of a stud fee. And, again, when I look at your question about the enforcability of speuter in a contract and you said,words to the effect of, "I don't care about the ethics question," and your writing of notes in your catalog, it sounds like a more serious interest in how Nikon finishes and how that might translate into a future line of SCH dogs.

Liesje

The bitch she bred to Gorbi is young and is her first homebred German bitch she is now breeding.  If you can point out which "faults" you is as "unsalvageable" I can address those concerns.

I must have been confused. I thought she was the one who bred Kenya, whom you have pointed out has the wrong temperment for SCH and is why, in part, you got Nikon, so that you could get into SCH. And that your breeder bred her bitch to a male after 3 days of observation. Only in this post do you mention that one doesn;t go to one of these shows without knowing background of the other dogs. That's a lot of work "just for fun." Which is it? A happy lark or serious business, evaluating with an eye to breeding? Which is more consideration than a friend of mine had with her female Lab. She wanted to have her bitch bred with Shadow because he is a pretty boy. I talked her out of it and within a year or so, it was moot, as both dogs were fixed.

Which leads to a side question. In order for dogs to compete in SCH, must they be unaltered?

Liesje

As for the comment about evaluating a dog in three days you seem to have missed the part where the show is mainly a point of interest.  No good breeder would attend a show without any prior knowledge or experience with the dogs entered and make breeding decisions simply based on the results of the show. 

Reasonable. But you just said that your breeder bred her home-bred bitch to Gorbi, a male at the show, after 3 days. Unless she knew about Gorbi way before and that was not mentioned previously. The other thing I was noticing was that your breeder bred a show/work hybrid to another show, which created Nikon's litter and explains the slope in his rear even when he was 8 weeks old, which was not in the original breeding program of Kirschental, which is to breed a show sire with a working dam. It would be interesting to know how many of Kenya's littermates were soft. Or, how many of Nikon's littermates were soft. Or had the right focus and confidence to do SCH. You've mentioned that she wished she had kept Nikon and hopes that you stay nearby so that she can have him sire if she finds a suitable dam. That certainly makes it sound as if your breeder is the one who bred Nikon's litter. Unless she didn't cause that breeding or Kenya's, in which case she hasn't had any problem with a line, I guess. I get confused. She's breeding, she's not breeding. I thought maybe you had plans, too. If she were that gung ho about him, you might have thought, hmm, maybe he is breedworthy. What would it take to breed him, etc. I'm not saying that you shouldn't or can't breed. As I said before, you might do well at it. Especially if you are breeding with an eye toward SCH, which definitely includes both temperment and workability, and less of an eye toward a specific conformation. As valid as breeding for herding skills.

Let me side-track just a moment to show what I mean about the value of temperment and workability in breeding. Depending on which history source, the chukchi bred the chukchi dog (Siberian Husky) for 1,000 to 3,000 years. They didn't care about finished height, weight, coloration. Heck, they didn't even care if the eyes were the same color. Or all one color. They culled failures and only bred the dogs that were good with humans and could do the job. So, you had dogs ranging from 22 inches tall at the shoulder to 24 +, ranging from 45 lbs to almost 60. Wildly varying piebald colors in the coat, not unlike a wolf. Mono-color eyes, bi-colored (each eye a different color), and parti-colored (the irises were more than one color. It was one of the healthiest breeds, suffering usually from coronal dystrophy (trouble focusing at close and extreme distances) and some mild Hip Dysplasia (and I theorize that was more from the work than anything else. A 12 year old Sibe tugging into the wind at -70 F might get a little achy.) Otherwise, relatively free of defects and totally suited for the environment and the job at hand. I knew a lady with a 16 year old who could still run but not as long as she used to run. I do honestly fear for what will happen to the breed with AKC standards in place. A dog has to fall within certain physical dimensions to be judged. To the handlers and showers credit, the last few I have seen in the big shows were from working teams, proving some workability but they were no doubt chosen because they also matched the specific dimensions dictated by the AKC.

But, even for fun, I think it's great to have activities to do and goals to achieve, even if you never had Nikon sire a litter. Thing is, what if your breeder asked to have Nikon sire a litter. Would you? And would you like to have pick of the litter, especially if Nikon gets a SCH 3? I can see it being easy to get into breeding when you have found something special.

In any case, thanks for helping to educate me about the world of SCH.

I've wanted to build a cart and get Shadow pulling. He's a natural and I have trained him with mushing commands. I don't think we could get far in off-leash obedience. He's a little too Sibe in my opinion. But I could be wrong, there. But if we never do anything but walk and practice obedience and serve as a teaching aid for one instructor I know, that's fine, too. This trainer I know was working with a client's dog and was practicing the watch me command. And Shadow was the perfect foil. He liked the other dog and the traded sniffs. I had him in a down and he only didn't like it as much when the other dog was licking and sniffing him too much, which allowed the "Watch me" command to be used. Shadow was showing great tolerance to the exuberant younger dog. We have our moments, now and then.

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/regulations/sieger_show_rules.htm

It sounds like a lot of fun. And even though Nikon is too young to be evaluated, it could certainly get him used to the noise, smell, and feel of the event.

http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breeding_regulations.htm

The dam your breeder had sired by Gorbi, was she title in the USA network? Or was she breeding for another reason besides SCH. According to this registry, both dogs need titles.

No, our club is WDA not UScA, though we will be attending the UScA Sieger Show in the spring and showing our dogs.  The FCI recognizes WDA titles but not UScA.  UScA rules don't apply to our dogs because we are not members and her litters are not registered with them, but their rules look identical to WDA rules (and both are pretty much common sense).  For example, Nikon's tattoo does not match the UScA rules but it still is acceptable to them because his litter is not UScA registered.  If the entire litter was registered to them, then the tattoo has to follow their pattern (which is a 7-digit and the couple who did our tattooes only has a 5-digit).  Since Nikon is less than a year he can show in their venue and not be registered with them (though he will be at some point).  He is not too young, he could be showing starting Dec. 7.  The working class female we show will need to be registered with them if she's not already but she is titled up to SchH2 (Germany) and already V-rated (WDA).  Our dogs are/will be titled WDA and/or have titles from Germany (that is why we chose to apply to WDA instead of UScA, since she chooses studs and bitches in Germany the titles we put on the dogs need to be recognized there).

Really though I think the registrations are just a way for these organizations to make enough money to hold the shows and stuff.  One dog is not better than another simply based on where he is registered.  Nikon will be AKC, UKC, WDA, and UScA but that does not make him a better dog than a littermate who is only AKC.  It's annoying to do all the paperwork and pay all the fees, but I think that the fees are fair considering how much fun we have at their gatherings.  The real waste of money is when people ship their dogs off to Germany or whatnot to be shown and titled there instead of just doing it themselves.  Some might say there is a slight advantage in being HOT (hander owner trained) because it implies your dog is free of all the politics that goes into these huge breeders that drop thousands on Germany dogs, pay German handlers and trainers, etc.  I have nothing against buying an imported adult if there is something s/he will add to your breeding program but there are some breeders who do this nonstop and to my knowledge rarely show, train, or title their own dogs (and go figure they are the ones that charge outrageous prices and sell dogs with very poor temperaments).

Liesje

No, our club is WDA not UScA, though we will be attending the UScA Sieger Show in the spring and showing our dogs.  The FCI recognizes WDA titles but not UScA. 

Sorry for my error. I know you said that before and I forgot. And while trying to read up on this, the UScA comes up first. Sorry for the confusion, mostly on my part.

No worries, Ron.  They are basically interchangeable, two organizations doing the same things - Schutzhund trials and conformation shows.  Sort of like there's AKC and there's UKC and both do conformation, obedience, agility, etc and a lot of dogs do both.  I wish there was just one, but I guess it does make it more fun since there are more shows.  Also, the "Sieger" shows are the only ones that do the protection test for the working classes (not at club shows or regional shows, only the national, continent, universal, etc) and those are fun to watch.

Well, it must be neat to take your puppy to watch a show and get him used to the crowds and noise. I read where a dog must be 18 months at least to be shown.

The other part that is confusing me is how your trainer, as you described, is starting stick training on Nikon. Granted, such can be done positively, mostly with prey drive, to get the dog to hold the bite or hold the guard position and be oblivious to strikes, as if a suspect were trying to beat him away. But even then, there should be an out. I guess I haven't read where Nikon has a solid out, yet. Either site mentions that the dog should have positive atmosphere as a pup where they are not dominated in order to build confidence. And I can see how all of this can be done with rewards. For example, in watching some competitions, I see where the handler or trainer rewards the dog with tug on a rolled up towel. Not only does this reward the dog and keep him up in drive at the same time, it prevents suspects from throwing him off the game with a food treat. I'm just wondering why the strike training is coming before the obedience training. And how is he rewarded for a good session of strike stick where he stays in drive without getting afraid or defensive? If he's only 14 weeks, I'm not sure all the cognitive ability is there, yet. I'm not against the strike stick and it is necessary when training a dog to apprehend a suspect. In K-9 training, for example, they go one step further with gunfire. The dog must pursue and corner a suspect in spite of being fired upon, running right through no man's land. Well, that takes a while to train the focus needed, to help the dog be unaffected by gunfire (where some talk about the nerves of the dog, I imagine.)

 What you train when totally depends on the dog.  I am not currently training an out and several SchH people advised me not to.  The reason is this - when I initially gave it a try I figured I'd use a "trade" method, I would grab something valuable to the dog and as he released the tug I would say "out" and give him the reward.  I tried it exactly two times and realized that it was making Nikon "grabby", meaning instead of getting a full grip on his tug and tugging for dear life, he was only mouthing it and letting go anytime I made any move, thinking I was going to give him a treat.  The out is important but for many dogs it is something that comes with maturity.  You absolutely do not need an out to start ragwork and tug.  The MOST important thing is getting the dog in drive, training him and encouraging him to the point that he will tug anything, anywhere, not just be mouthing on his toys and looking all over for people with treats.  Also, with a hard, high drive dog often training an out will require some corrections whether we like to use them or not, and a puppy being developed for SchH should absolutely NOT be physically corrected until he is mature and confident enough to understand that correction and not have it affect his desire to work.

The strike training really isn't something different than what we normally do.  When he is really focused and latched on with a full grip giving me a good fight, we will do things like pet him hard, rub our hands on his face, chest, and side, make hitting motions with objects, or even "hit" him with a long soft tug.  There is no defense drive at this point, and there should not be from a dog so young.  It is all prey and once he has latched on good the world could collapse around him and it wouldn't matter to him.  I can lift him off his feet, swing him around in the air (both done carefully using correct position and motion - we are not just flinging puppies around with reckless abandon).  So it's not like I think to myself "OK now we are going to strike train and I'm going to hit my dog with sticks".  Every single time we tug and do ragwork, different things are happening to him.  Like any type of good training, you set the dog up for success and don't push beyond what he can handle.  He has never let go because the helper or I did something to him and pushed him too far.  Training ends with the dog still in drive.  After he does a really good bite and tug he gets a lot of praise.  Then I have him chase and lunge for the toy once more and that's it.  I put it away while he is still worked up and excited for it, otherwise it becomes boring.  Also, the handler/helper needs to control how and when the game stops.  Eventually, he will have more control.  Already he is learning to engage the toy by barking at it, but *I* stop the session when I see fit and the toy is put away out of reach.

It is not about cognitive ability, it's about encouraging the inherent drive, at this point it's all prey.  Hunt drive is used for tracking imprinting.  Defense drive will come in later on.

This is a good example of how we "train".  This puppy is a little younger than Nikon is now but it's basically the same kind of stuff we do.  See how he is using different matterials for tugging, exposing the puppy to different noises and surfaces, moving the puppy around instead of tugging from a stationary position, rubbing and hitting the puppy, giving the puppy "victory laps" with the toy, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aO0ayIefBg

Obedience is really not a factor at all at this age.  Some SchH people will recommend not starting any form of obedience and not going to puppy class.  We do attend puppy class and Nikon already knows a fair deal of commands but that is more for managing him around the house and working on his manners than obedience that will be useful for SchH.  Again that comes with maturity.  With a dog that has good drive, a good bond with the handler, and the right confidence and focus developed as a puppy, it's really not *that* difficult to train later on. 

A friend of mine trains her GSD in SchH and her dog was a COMPLETE hellion.  She said she doesn't do any obedience or form of curbing/inhibiting behavior as she wants all the drive she can get.  She said she'll train the out/off command later after the work drive and the lack of inhibition is firmly rooted.  At about a year she'll start OB, etc.

Let me assure you an 8 month old GSD without out inhibition and a ton of drive is somethign to behold.  She does train conformation as well... but, that's about the only place she is fairly well mannered, which is still not MY version of well mannered! LOL  This idea (of not encouraging inhibition) in a puppy who will be a large breed dog was something that I would never do, just because I don't think you can co-habitate successfully with a dog who has no boundaries (within reason, of course)... is that something most people who train SchH do in your area, Liesje?  Apparently it's fairly common where she trains. It sounds like you are expecting certain behaviors out of Nikon, which is reasonable, but I was just under the impression that you needed to allow the puppy to grow up without inhibition (particularly bite) and lots of confidence to get a good SchH prospect. But I'm sure different people do different things.

I'll never forget holding the leash of this creature and being instructed not to inhibit within reason, while my friend did something with another dog.  The GSD pup was flinging herself off the end of the leash and jumping on me... and biting at the her leash... it was CRAZY! LOL  I couldn't imagine living with her!

I was also told by my trainers not to teach an out until much later.  The way they told me to teach Rafe (and this was long after he was doing very good sleeve work and was very confident on the sleeve), was to play with him at home with a tug.  We'd play tug for awhile, then I'd stop tuggin the toy and just hold it still.  When he started letting go I'd give the out command, and as soon as he let go we'd play again.  It worked like a charm.  He did already have some concept of an "out" because he'd been trained a "give" command before starting his bitework.  The way I taught him works really well for schutzhund, but might not be the greatest for police work or personal protection.  In SchH, when the helper stops moving during a bite, that is when we out the dog.  So Rafe will basically out himself when the helper stops moving.  Obviously I say "aus" anyway, but I really don't have to.  Now if he were to be a police or personal protection dog, I wouldn't want that.  But since he isn't, I'm perfectly happy with his training. 

A lot of people think it's reckless to start bitwork when the dog doesn't have much in the obedience department and doesn't have any 'out,' but from what I've seen with Rafe there really wasn't much of a risk.  The only time the dog will be likely to bite is in training, and it is YOUR job to make sure a situation doesn't arise in which the dog may think it IS time to bite when it ISN'T.  I do always like to have a 'safety' though, with older dogs that could do some damage (puppies aren't really going to do much).  Mine with Rafe is that I had a super strong down, even when we were still early on in the obedience stages.  I trained and trained that down, and he'd down at any time, whether he was running toward someone else who had called him or who has his tug, or running towards me, etc.  That way when he hears that down command, he drops, no matter what he's doing or how much in drive he is.  Just in case...  ;)

 And just to answer your previous question about dogs having to be intact to compete in schutzhund - they do not.  Rafe is a Humane Society muttly that was neutered at 6 months, and shortly after started his bitework. 

Lani I've decided I don't really care what is the norm around here that will not be my dog.  My main goal for Nikon is just to be a good example of the breed, in a general sense, and for me that includes good household manners and appropriate behavior in public.  I do not expect to be competitive in SchH, I simply prefer that way of training regardless of how far the dog can title.  Our obedience work will be focused on me being able to control him, get his focus to me, and just do the basic stuff any dog needs.  Drive is really determined by genetics anyway, it's either there or it's not.  I personally do not believe that putting my dog through puppy class and two rounds of obedience (basic and CGC) is going to "ruin" him as a SchH prospect.  I do know the kind of people you describe and yes, that is VERY common.

Bite inhibition (or lack thereof) is different than prey drive.  Nikon has developed very good bite inhibition on his own.  I attribute this to being part of a large litter, having lots of exposure to his littermates even after I purchased him, and also me having well rounded adult dogs at home, helping "teach" him the ropes in the doggy way.  Any dog that lunges and mouths on people with no inhibition is inappropriate to me, regardless of the dog's background or training for sport.  One of the marks of a really great GSD is an on/off switch.  There is no reason why even a true working dog cannot settle in the house and serve as a family companion as well as working in the field.

What is different about the way I treat and raise Nikon is that I encourage a lot of things people might discourage, within reason.  I encourage him to be confident and curious, even if that means he tries to chew something that's not a toy, or he barks at other dogs trying to engage them in play.  Some people think tug is of the devil but we tug, tug tug!  I bring tugs to the park, to puppy class, to the pet store....  I also have to be sure he is not constantly dominated by other dogs even though he technically is the lowest in the pack right now.  I give him full access to my other dogs but if I see he is pushing their buttons *I* step in to remove him before they harshly correct him.  I don't mind them play biting and play wrestling each other but it's important that he not inhibit his confidence around other dogs and people for fear of being physically corrected by a dog or person.  That does NOT mean is is allowed to mouth people or bully other dogs.  If there is a situation where I think he is the one that will be constantly bullied or rolled on his back by other dogs than I simply keep him off to myself and play tug instead.

Yes these dogs are raised differently but it's not an excuse for poor manners.  I do not think that you have to wait with training obedience and manners, I just think that precision is not really important until the dog is mature, and it seems like what Ron was talking about has more to do with training a certain level of precision in the ring and on the field.  That can wait.  People look at a heeling pattern and think it must take ages to train a dog to do that but really the training is mostly in getting the dog to do that work in drive and encouraging the dog to focus.  The actual heel positions, pivoting, sits/platzs out of motion, etc don't need to be polished with a puppy.  You want your puppy in drive and excited to be working with you regardless of what you are doing. Attitude is much more important than precision and the BH is a pass/fail test.

Good replies and I'm glad others chimed in, as well.

I noticed in the video, when he did the strike work, he used a piece of foam insulation that I've seen used on line sets for an A/C unit. Just in case others don't know, this stuff is so soft and bendy that I could swing at you with it, taking a step into and transferring my weight, and it might tickle you, if that much. I mean, you could do more damage with a pillow than line set insulation.  So, the puppy is not being hurt. It's like being touched by a feather.

I read in one training guide wherein the stick work didn't begin until after the dog could set a bite on a sleeve, which would have placed that aspect later in training, say when the dog is big enough to have jaws that could latch onto a bite training sleeve. Also, in order to not have prey drive turn into defensive drive too soon, much work is done with a flirt pole and the human keeps side presentation. The frontal presentation comes later when it is assured that the dog won't go into defensive mode. This was done in stages, which is why I thought the stick or even insulation tube work came later, at a time when the dog wouldn't automatically go into defense with a frontal presentation. I also assumed the need for an out command. Especially if I had kids around.

I believe in exercising prey drive, too, though as an outlet more than a means of control. Shadow and I play tug. With the kong. It must look dangerous to see me stick a finger or two seemingly into his jaws when I'm actually gripping the kong and we tug back and forth and side to side. But I also have and "off." And "drop it." And those have become some of his favorite things because he is nuts for treats. Seriously, he will start to chase the cat just to hear me say "off," it seems, just so he can get a treat. That is, chasing the cat is not that important to him any more, except as a way to earn a treat by offing when I say so. Or, I will be in the middle of posting here and he will come up to me and drop his kong at my feet. Some might say, "What? You're still giving him treats?" Yes, I am. I've seen grown K-9s that are actual working police dogs in a competition on a show and they still get rewarded with tug on a towel, even though they done this a thousand times before. It's how Shadow works and that's fine with me.

Other times, I encourage his zoomies. One, it's a breed thing. He has to get up to full speed a few times a day. Two, it burns off some energy.

So, I guess we do what works. And I will readily admit, as I did before, that I don't know enough about Schutzhund to be dangerous and I may confuse it with K-9 training because it looks similar. You are engaging a dog to pursue and assault a human through prey drive and on command. And I had not realized that one could do such work with such a young pup. The one in the video was younger than yours is now, Liesje. At least I think I remember you saying Nikon is 14 weeks, as opposed to the 12 week old in the video.

And I do think it is good to realize that not all dogs are meant for this work, not all dogs work in prey drive so well, a distinction that was lost in discussions with Lee Charles Kelley when he was here. I think he felt all dogs should be worked in prey drive which is a bit of the ole hammer and nail syndrome. I'm also glad to see that there is acknowledgement of a dog's ability to understand a punishment. They may not understand it at an early age, at least in the ways that humans give punishments or corrections. Which is why I think it's so important that a pup remain with momma until at least 10 weeks. But I think you got yours sooner than that, right? I was a bit concerned about that, too. There are some valuable lessons to be learned that momma dog can do right at the proper window in life. One of them is bite inhibition. I know part of the object in SCH work is to work with a dog and have him not inhibit a bite but actually latch on and set.

It's been mentioned that SCH trained dogs can be part of a family. But I imagine that would have to be a special family that understands this training. The average adoptive family would probably get in trouble in a hurry. Here's a dog that has been encouraged and trained to, when in prey drive, go for the bite. I think some dogs are smart enough to differentiate. But, at what age, would one know if the dog truly has the right temperment, the ability to turn it on and off? That is, only engage humans in combat on command, otherwise act like a couch potato around small humans. I mean Shadow can tug well too and not want to let go, unless I let go and say drop it. But that doesn't mean that he would good for Schutzhund.

Ron, SchH people probably won't admit this but a lot of the training and trialing is pattern training and the dog is really going for a sleeve, not a human.  Especially German show dogs like Nikon.  It's literally a game to them.  People who breed and train exclusively for SchH will produce and train much, much harder dogs than a dog like Nikon. 

Just because a dog is trained in prey drive absolutely does not mean that dog is dangerous and cannot live in a normal household.  A lot of people train agility in prey drive, and you don't see those dogs jumping over and weaving around every household object anytime the slightest bit of prey drive kicks in.  Dogs are extremely contextual.  Initially it is all about the sleeve.  Last week at training a SchH2 bitch came out to do some bitework.  After a good bite she took the sleeve for her victory lap.  She proceded to bark at and bite at the sleeve, trying to re-engage the "game" of the tugging and biting.  Meanwhile, the helper she was supposedly "biting" just seconds before was petting her and laughing.  Now, a real hardcore SchH person would want to see this bitch forget about the sleeve and try to engage the helper for another bite, but we're not hardcore and that's not how we train.  For us, SchH is a process, the means are more important than the ends.  We are not training K9 suspect aprehension dogs, we are just building and testing the character of our dogs per the breed standard.

As for the hits, now you see what I mean.  Have you ever used the stick they use in a trial?  I have whipped myself with one and it feels like getting hit with the cardboard tube from inside a paper towel roll.  It's flexible, light, and padded.  The hit is not really what tests the dog anyway, it's more the motion of the helper reaching over and fighting back.  Often the dogs that get "insufficient" in their protection test fail before they are actually struck.  You will see the helper "drive" the dog forward after the bite.  I've seen a lot of dogs not go for the bite and many others let go at this point when the helper is driving them.  I can hit Nikon harder than he'll be hit in a trial as an adult but he is a little aprehensive about being driven like that while we are tugging so with puppies we don't really do that, we move them in a figure 8 motion back and forthing 180 degrees in front of the helper.

Personally I think 8 weeks is ideal.  I asked the breeder (and several others) and pretty much everyone said 8 weeks.  The mother really doesn't factor in anymore at that age.  Honestly you can remove a pup at 6 weeks and what he is missing is bite inhibition from his litter mates.  The mother does not teach them the things they really need to know.  At 8 weeks the pups are definitely weaned, they've had weeks to interact with each other.  She said she used to keep them for 10 weeks but it really didn't make any difference and was so much more work for her.  At that age they should be separated and receiving individual attention, crate training, lots of house training, etc...all the stuff the new family will need to do anyway.  At that age they need to start being socialized with other dogs (depending on vacc's) and humans.  I got Nikon at 8 weeks but he was back with two of his siblings for 3 days, 3 days after I got him.  At that point it was clear they were acting as individuals.  The play was getting very rough and after a few hours it was clear they weren't really into being ex-penned together anymore.  One of the other males bit Nikon's ear so hard he bled a lot and still has a spot of fur missing, maybe a permanent scar.  If people are incapable of house training, crate training, and socializing an 8+ week old GSD then they probably aren't ready for a GSD puppy of ANY age.

If you are really interested in seeing how it works you should visit a club or attend some trials.  A lot of it becomes clear just watching people work dogs and talking to people.  It's not too hard to pick up on.  You can do it with Shadow.  Any dog can do it even if they are neutered and/or a mutt.  If Coke had any sort of drive in him he'd be doing it too.

I've watched my trainer raise two Doberman pups and one GSD pups for SchH and it is a completely different story than raising a pet.  Obedience is incorporated at a different rate and with different emphasis than a pet, but it's still incorporated within the first year.  However, "off" and "out" just aren't introduced when most of us would expect for a pet puppy. 

I get the impression that Lies is using SchH methods in her own application to get results that are not intended for SchH competition, but for general pet ownership with the fun of working her dog in an arena which is presumed to be natural for the breed.