Supplements - what do you use, what do you like, what do you dislike?

I always recommend to anyone I talk too, whether discussing human or pet diets, the addition of omega-3s.  For dogs, fish body oil is the best source. 

For the rest, I listen to the needs of my dogs.  I supplement cholodin across the board because I've found it consistently lacking in everyone's diets and it's not a nutrient you can oversupply (it's in the B vitamin family).   Cholodin is important for brain and nervous function, particularly in older dogs.

Other minerals are supplied as the diets dictate.  Each dog has their own blend.  If I change something I reformulate.  If it's a long term thing I check with a dietary consultant like Sabine Contreras (I only mention her because she's who I use).  I do this because I've noticed over the years that balance can only be achieved this way, or by feeding exotic parts that most people don't have access to.  Many dogs do just fine with imbalanced diets, but mine work kind of close to the edge.

You can really feed whatever you want, within reason - as long as it's not poisonous - if you are somehow supplying the main nutrients the dog needs.  It's not ideal, but in theory you could feed a dog nothing but cornmeal and soybean meal and vegetable oil, plus vitamins and minerals - after all, that's basically what pet food companies did for years!

There's no totally right or wrong way to feed your dog - you have to decide what you'd like to do, based on what your dog tolerates, does best on, and likes, the  ingredients you have or can get easily, your budget,  and your lifestyle.

I have some balanced diets prepared by nutritionists. All of them require the addition of calcium and potassium, and most also require the addition of other minerals, most commonly zinc, and sometimes B vitamins. One of my dogs consumes remarkably little food so I give her a human multivitamin/mineral tablet. I give all of the dogs fish body oil, vitamin E, and joint supplements.

as to the idea that one can achieve balance over time without any supplements, go read Monica Segal's books. She tells many stories of dogs on such diets that develop health problems, then she points out what the diet was lacking or had in excess, they re-formulate the diet, and the dog gets better.

thanks mudpuppy -- this is what I was looking for, mostly.

Do you recommend Monica Segal's book or her pamphlets more, to start?  I googled K9kitchen and there seems to be a new version coming out sometime soon, late 2008 or 2009.  Perhaps I can start with the pamphlets and get the book when the new edition comes out?  Or is the current K9kitchen or Optimal Nutrition books still relevant?

I'm not sure any "formulation" is perfect which is why I tried to rotate kibbles fairly frequently -- if one was a bit high or low on something, another might balance it out OK.  I'm still considering something like Honest Kitchen with the dehydrated premade mixes as well.

Optimal Nutrition is still up to date.  IF her first book is being updated, then it's probably to bring it in line with the current NRC recommendations, which ON already is.  I actually started with ON, though I've been on the K9 Kitchen Yahoo list for years.  I would definitely recommend that.  There's a recommended reading which doesn't just include Monica Segal's materials, but also offers some slightly differing viewpoints with the thinking and research behind them.  That's nice if you are still in the process of making up your mind.  :)

mudpuppy

as to the idea that one can achieve balance over time without any supplements, go read Monica Segal's books. She tells many stories of dogs on such diets that develop health problems, then she points out what the diet was lacking or in excess, they re-formulate the diet, and the dog gets better.

  Great advice I had a consultation with Sabine this summer too and have been very pleased with the results. Jessie's diet is tricky to formulate because she has numerous food allergies. I wanted to home cook but also make certain her diet was well balanced. She's doing better than ever.  My favorite supplement is the seapet fish oils; I use the seapet 200 per Sabine's instructions; it has omega 3's and vitamin E; http://www.seapet.com/Oil.htm#omega3E

 I agree with Becca about joining K9 Kitchen; it's a great place to learn about raw and home cooked diets.
 

All that everyone said but I'll add just a bit for what *I* do.  Some of this you may know, some you may not -- not treating you 'stupid' -- just things sometimes you might not know.

1.  She referrs above to "fish body oil".  Ok -- it took me forever to "get" this.  I looked at my holistic vet and said "You mean like cod liver oil?"  she looked at me like I was a few quarts shy of an oil change and said "Nooooooo, that's ORGAN oil ... like fish *body* oil -- omega-3s -- like salmon oil or whole sardines or jack mackerel ..."

Ohhhh ... ok. (who knew?)

2.  Calcium -- yep, that's a biggie.  Now Glenda pulverizes her own out of egg shells.  David and I *might* use 6 eggs a year (*rolling eyes* I'm serious -- in one of my Christmas recipes??) so I buy calcium.

You can get human grade bone meal (don't use garden bone meal -- it's poison -- again, not something *I* would have known).  There are various calcium sources.

There is calcium citrate, plain 'calcium' (which might be partly ground sea shells, I'm NOT sure) and bone meal.  But even varying brand to brand you'll use different amounts.  Wuss that I am I let the vet tell me how much to add.  But recently the vet had me switch to bone meal from citric acid (simply because it was more 'natural' and yuck, I hate it b/c it's so chalky) but dang ... I had to use a "rounded teaspoon" for EVERY 8 oz of meat.  So egads I was buying it all the time.

Now they've got a new brand in that is just called "Calcium" and it is "Animal Essentials" brand.  And that I only have to use 1 teas. for every pound of meat -- it's not super chalky and I like it.

But I'd also suppose it might be one of those things that would be good to 'rotate' occasionally.

3.  Experience is gonna teach you a lot -- to a degree you have to respond to what meats you're using (do you need to add oil or not, and if so are you going to add something like safflower or a high grade olive oil?). 

4.  Along with oils -- you also have to investigate what you can add 'hot' and what has to stay cold.

For example -- you do NOT heat flax or flax oil (if you're using flax as an Omega-3 - it's one of those things I rotate).  So I might dump olive oil in while the food is hot but NOT flax oil -- I'd wait til that was completely cool, add the oil and THEN portion it up and refrigerate pretty fast.

Some oils 'change' in the cooking process.

5.  General supplements.  I use very very little "pet" supplement stuff.  PARTICULARLY Omega-3s'  Why?  Because they can be rancid.  This stuff isn't at all regulated -- and shoot, even human grade fish oil stuff (Chicken of the Seat, store brands, etc.) can be suspect so do be careful. 

I use a lot of "NOW Brand" stuff - it's not cheap, not as easy to find but superior quality. 

I've recently discovered Blue Bonnet as well for me and the dogs both.  I take a B supplement and BB is the only one that doesn't upset my tummy.  And they are not that expensive.  I order my nutriceuticals online almost exclusively now and can find bery reasonable prices on the top names like NOW and Blue Bonnet.

Seapet is my favorite brand for fish oil now.  You just can't beat the economics of the Gold formula.  I was going through $50 worth of fish oil capsules a month, the nice little bottles of liquid were even less economical.   And sometimes I'd get a bad batch that would turn the dogs right off the pills and I'd end up poking and squeezing for a while.  The Seapet is super high quality and you keep it in the fridge.  All my medium sized dogs get a mere 1/4 teaspoon a day - Zhi gets a teeny drop.  One small $25 bottle lasted me two months. 

You can find all but the Seapet brands very easily online.  I use House of Nutrition.  There's Herb.com, MotherNature.com (I like their incense products), and many others.  I like HON because they have a set shipping fee no matter how much you order - I usually order about $60 worth of stuff a month because I also get household items like incense, personal health care items, and home cleaners.  Since it would cost me $35 to drive to the nearest health store, plus the fact that the online items are usually sold for 30% to 25% what they go for in brick and mortar stores - that's a great deal for me!

Seapet only sells their products through their own retail outlet online.  It's kind of a pain but worth it. 

Thanks, everyone.  And Callie, thanks for explaining everything down to the "nitty gritty" since you should never assume I know much of anything!

DH and I use "fake" eggs (think eggbeaters) so I have some egg shells from when my folks were visiting and I made breakfast (hard to make over easy eggs with eggbeaters!!!) but I don't add a measured amount.  I'm still looking things up and learning for amounts.

I'm still playing around, so it's helpful to get everyone's input.  I'm asking for some books/pamphlets for christmas, and talking to some people I know to see what cool local places we have.  I'm also trying to find samples of things like Honest Kitchen's dehydrated raw that won't cost me something like $11 shipping.  Sigh.  Gotta get to the specialty pet stores around here some more, the one we have class at only has Sojos, but it might be worth looking into as well.  

Callie, in case you're interested from the other thread, I did end up finding okra around here, frozen.  It's *weird* to say the least, but so far Sammy is eating it.  Not sure I cooked it exactly right, but I used the leftover broth from cooking some meat so I'm sure that helped!  Also found some fresh kale, but again, I have no idea how to cook  anything the "proper" way.  It was also expensive!  But, Sammy's been eating just fine anything that I make.  He used to be on a very regular potty schedule, and the only downside so far is that he's a bit off.  But, I didn't transition him all that well -- he has a stomach of iron so nothing makes him sick, he's just going at unusual times for him. 

OK I just looked at a few websites and I have more questions.  Is there any difference in fish oil from anchovies and sardines, like Seapet, versus something like Grizzly which is from salmon?  Dose the type of fish matter?  Me, I prefer my fish in capsules :)

Also, in reference to Callie talking about other oils, how do you know if you want to add something like extra virgin olive oil or not?  Is this also something good for them, or you just use it in cooking like you were sauteeing something? 

NicoleS

OK I just looked at a few websites and I have more questions.  Is there any difference in fish oil from anchovies and sardines, like Seapet, versus something like Grizzly which is from salmon?  Dose the type of fish matter?  Me, I prefer my fish in capsules :)

  Wild salmon oil is good because it's much lower in PCB's and other contaminants than oil from farmed fish. Jessie's allergic to salmon so I don't use salmon oil. Seapet is good option for us because it's tested for purity.

NicoleS

Also, in reference to Callie talking about other oils, how do you know if you want to add something like extra virgin olive oil or not?  Is this also something good for them, or you just use it in cooking like you were sauteeing something? 

  Some vegetable oils are a good source of omega 6's; others, like flax seed oil, are a good source of omega 3's. Olive oil is a good source of  omega 6's, and vitamins E, and K;

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/fats-and-oils/509/2

Here's the link to join K9Kitchen;

https://login.yahoo.com/config/login_verify2?.intl=us&.src=ygrp&.done=http%3a//groups.yahoo.com%2Fgroup%2FK9Kitchen%2Fjoin%2F

 Just a note on EV olive oil.  There have been several studies that show that for skin health or therapeutic treatment of allergies in dogs, EVOO has zero effect in double blind studies that compared it with fish oil, or fish oil and borage, flax, and other commonly used plant sourced oils.  For skin, fish plus borage or flax is shown to have the best effect.

Monica has the studies on the K9 Kitchen home site, in the files section.

The type of fish oil doesn't matter as long as it's tested for pharmaceutical grade purity.  Sardines and anchovies are fine.