beginning to think about homecooked

2DogsMom

Anyway, I'm really hoping that the homecooked will help his sensitive stomach/bowels. If anyone has a dog with similar problems and can offer further advice regarding diet, I'd really appreciate it! Thanks in advance for suggestions!!

There are sources online that will develop a homecooked plan for you and fine tune it as you go until you get a recipe that works for your dog.  If you're near a veterinary university, you might contact them to find out if their nutritionists do consults.  That's the route I went and got a specially designed diet from VA Tech.  Best money I ever spent, hands down.  If your dog does well on rice and hamburger, you might only need to add a few more ingredients to come up with a workable diet that he will do well on.   Indie had symptoms similar to your dog, especially the diarrhea, and responded well to a homecooked recipe that included high levels of different types of fiber along with pre and probiotics.  Transitioning Woobie from Hill's z/d (which he did do well on) to the same recipe as Indie is on with very slight modifications has also helped with his diarrhea and chronically clogged anal glands.  Hope this helps!

Oh, one more thing, don't get hung up on variety.  Some will say you need to rotate meats, include organs, stuff like that.  If you've got a dog that tends to "melt down" with changes to the diet, stick with what works as long as you have assurances that it's balanced and meeting his nutritional needs.  Even slight changes will send my Indie into diarrhea and he'll drop weight quickly.  I stick with what works and rest easy at night.

Good luck! 

ETA: Please note that I have said Indie and Woobie have done well on this and have not said "Feed your dog X" that is for you (dear lurker and anyone else reading) to decide and discuss with your VETERINARIAN.   

You have two other consult options that I'm aware of.  I'm personally familar with these so I can tell you my experiences.  Monica Segal has lots of terrific and very specific information available online via her e-mail group on Yahoo:  K9 Kitchen.  When you join (free) you get access to the archives with information on feeding dogs with different health issues, as well as information on how to get started putting together a diet just for your dog.  She also offers pamphlets with recipes, and also offers a nutritional consultation service.  The service not only gives you a recipe, but also helps you learn how to fit cooking for your dog, into your lifestyle, and also includes ongoing troubleshooting.  I've found Monica to be very competant and helpful.

Sabine Contreras is who is working with me to come up with optimal diets for my whole gang.  I've been working with her for almost a year and I love it.  She offers the same kind of service as Monica.  What I like about her is that she is really into working with you to make sure the diets you come up with meet not only your dog's needs, but also your lifestyle and expectations.  She will do combo diets of anything you want, including part or all commercial foods like canned or kibble (though she will likely strongly recommend home prepared for this problem).

She also owns a forum and an educational web site which discusses commercial diets.  Her service is Betterdogcare.com

I don't have any experience with Dr. Remilliard but I've heard terrific things about her. 

As you look at the cost of consultation, consider what a single trip to the vet with an acute bout of GI is costing you.  Your dog's problem sounds like an inflammatory condition.  The first dog I took to Sabine was my girl Lynn, who was having inflammatory problems as well.

With IBD (inflammatory bowel disease), what you definitely do NOT want to do is mess around experimenting on your own (for instance, insoluble fiber would be a very bad idea right now).  That's why I didn't do that with Lynn.  Sabine developed a diet and some recommendations for supplements which are anti-inflammatory and bland.  She eats the same diet week after week.  After a couple weeks on the new diet, she had no more bouts of acute gi symptoms.  Six weeks out and she was a different dog.  Now six months later, she's doubled in size, has a rich full coat, and rarely has vomiting or diarrhea problems. 

Lori might chime in here.  She's done a bang up job working with her Willow.  She can tell you how important it is to get good advice, and how important it is to keep it under control.  It is much easier to trigger an acute episode of this than it is to get the cascade effect of inflammation, bowel damage, and secondary reactions, under control.

Antibiotics are the correct way to go, but ask your vet about a gi-active anitbiotic like Tylan.  That stuff works wonders for IBD.  It's super safe, does very little to harm "good" gi flora, and has a great reputation for effectiveness.

I'm not all about running straight for the steroids, but again, in this case, it's like you are running ahead of the speeding train.  You've got to get something extreme to stop the train.  So if your vet hasn't considered something like prednisone, ask about doing a short course.

Finally, a specialist is something that is well worth the money here, if you can get to one.  If you can't, then definitely you want a consult with one the resources we've been discussing.

Good luck!  I know it can be frustrating but it's wonderful that you have an open mind about what it might take to fix this.  As you dog gets better, you will feel so good about it! 

Thank you so much for the helpful information, Brookcove!

I was up for hours last night doing research on this and although the thought of switching over to homecooked is a bit daunting because of my lack of knowledge re: canine nutrional needs, I'm really encouraged by all of the options for expert support.

Another question... I was able to track down the name and number of a holistic vet relatively close by. Is nutrition something she could assist with? I would love to find someone locally who could help us and wasn't sure if a holistic vet could provide some guidance in making the switch or if it would be better to pursue a consultation with one of the I-dog recommended professionals.

 Thanks again for all of the information! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond and offer suggestions!

2Dogs we had bad issues with diareaah when Ari was on Innova.  We thought she had parasties/worms - wormed her a few times to no avail.  We switched off of Innova and went to a simpler kibble (California Natural) and the problems we had with diarrhea were gone (well she still gets it but only after drinking too much river water when swimming!).

I think some dogs simply need simple foods - Innova is very rich.  I think switching to a simpler kibble or trying homecooked would be beneficial.   Poor Cooper - Ari had a gurgly stomach too come to think of it when on Innova. 

Really?!?! Good to know! I had no idea how rich it is! 

I'll definitely look into California Natural. Is there a particular kibble in their line that you've had success with? I took a quick look and noticed that they have several varities of adult kibble.

I know all about gurgly stomachs!! Cooper's is so noisy sometimes that it wakes me up during the night. I'm not kidding! Makes you feel so bad when they're under the weather like that, doesn't it?

 Fiber is a safe and reasonable first step in attempting to modify the diet of a dog with diarrhea who is not losing weight drastically, has had other more serious diseases such as EPI ruled out, and who has shown a propensity to do well with dietary modification as has been evidenced by Cooper's response (which was the subject of the response) to rice and beef.  Heck, even when my dear Indie was near death's door, rated a 1 on a body condition scale (emaciated), had metabolized most of his muscle to stay alive, and had diarrhea running out of him like water, my vet put him on a high fiber RX diet while we were awaiting his EPI results, which he does not have.  Without spending big bucks and putting a dog through a painful and dangerous biopsy, you're not going to know for sure what is causing the diarrhea.  Dietary modification is often used as a first effort due to costs and the low chance of complications or side effects.  Of course, (for the lurkers, dear vulnerable innocents that you are), any course of treatment whether it be on your dog, cat, children or self, should be pursued with the consultation, approval and supervision of a MEDICAL professional, such as a veterinarian and NOT an internet personality.

For anyone still interested, here is scientific study into the role of fiber in canine digestion and diarrhea.

Diarrhea - the Mystery Within   (note scholarly research cited at end of article, peer-reviewed veterinary journals)

Dietary Manipulations
Fiber Manipulation
Dietary fibers affect predominately the large bowel, though they can also affect gastric,
small intestinal and pancreatic structure and function. Fibers in diets are responsible for
modifying gastric emptying time, ensuring normal intestinal motility and intestinal transport
time, buffering toxins and binding and holding excess water within the intestinal tract,
supporting the growth of normal intestinal bacterial flora, buffering gastric acidity after transport
into the intestinal tract and altering the viscosity of the intestinal contents, and adding
nondigestible bulk to the diet.
1, 4
Carbohydrates and fibers can be divided into 3 classes depending on their digestibility in
dogs and cats. There are highly-fermentable fibers such as guar gum and pectin that can
aggravate existing diarrhea by increasing the osmality within the intestinal tract. This increase in
osmolality pulls additional fluid into the intestines. These carbohydrates can be found in some of
the canned and saucy foods.
1, 4
Moderately fermentable fibers, though not actually digested well by the animal can be
broken down by the intestinal bacterial flora into short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs). These SCFAs
are a significant energy source for the enterocytes lining the intestinal tract. One class of
moderately fermentable fibers that has gotten a lot of attention is the fructooligiosaccharides
(FOS). Research has shown that not only do these fibers provide energy for the enterocytes, but
can also exert a “prebiotic” effect on the bacterial flora. Pea fiber, beet pulp and oat fiber are
examples of moderately fermentable fibers.
Non-fermentable or slowly fermentable fibers are typically added to foods to dilute
calories and to provide bulk. Cellulose, peanut hulls and soybean hulls are example of non-
fermentable fibers, though these fibers are not very water soluble, they do have significant water-
holding capacity and can be useful in some fiber responsive diarrheas.
1, 4
Many diets contain a combination of these fibers sources to provide the best of each of
them, without the problems associated with the use of a single fiber source. Other diets may
contain minimal fiber sources to increase digestibility and decrease stool volume.

Canine Feeding and Nutrition (again, cites ACADEMIC research and sources, not internet websites)

Diet and Large Intestinal Disease in Dogs and Cats

Until the underlying etiology of colitis is determined, treatment regimens will remain symptomatic. Recent studies have placed considerable importance on the value of diet in the prevention, immediate and long-term therapy of colitis in dogs and cats. In particular the value of "novel" protein diets, fermentable fiber and polyunsaturated fatty acids is receiving the most attention. It is now possible to maintain patients in long-term remission and to modify the severity and chronicity of colitis by using diet alone.

Mordanna (Sabine Contreras) was a member here on I-Dog for a long time which is how a lot of the folks here know her.  She is *very* good.

I know Monica Segal (Doggie Dietician) the way folks here know Mordanna.  Monica and I both were active on a long-ago board called AllPets and we both freelanced for them.  We got to be good friends as a result (she's in Canada - we've never face-to-face met but we've been buds for about 10+ years online).

Monica is super as well.  Monica's consults are similar -- she'll help design a diet for your dog and then support you for several months via email (and she'll work with your vet as well). 

If you have a dog with health issues that you're trying to address it can really be helpful to consult with someone like that. 

However -- a GOOD holistic vet can help you as well.  They're each going to have a direction they are most comfortable with.  If you want to go thru the Chi Institute (qualifying agency for vets who do TCVM "Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine" then go to http://www.tcvm.com and there is a locator on the left side.

 Don't stress about doing it perfect right out of the box.  YOU WILL LEARN.  None of us learned to "cook" in a day.  Many of us are still perfecting it.  Just **start**.  You'll get better and your dogs will love you for it.

calliecritturs

However -- a GOOD holistic vet can help you as well.  They're each going to have a direction they are most comfortable with.  If you want to go thru the Chi Institute (qualifying agency for vets who do TCVM "Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine" then go to http://www.tcvm.com and there is a locator on the left side.

Yep, a holistic vet can be a priceless resource.  I consulted with 2 and the one who'd done additional training and coursework in chinese herbs was a great resource.  She's the one who got us started on turmeric and ginger, the results have been fantastic!  They're usually very up on nutrition as well. 

be careful with the fiber- most dogs have no dietary need for fiber and will get diarrhea and really gassy if you give it to them. A small minority of dogs have digestive disorders that respond positively to fiber.

If your dog has soft stools on a lot of different foods consider a raw diet- dogs on raw, low-fiber, low-carb diets usually have very small, quite firm poops that literally crumble into dust shortly after pooping. This is the diet the dog's digestive system is designed to process. You can try a trial of a few weeks of pre-made low-vegetable content raw such as Nature's variety and see what happens.

Exactly.  Non specific gi issues can be classed roughly into three categories:

• IBD.  This is an immune issue, sometimes directly in response to an infection, sometimes left over from an infection, sometimes caused by allergic problems, and sometimes it's just a quirk of the immune ssytem itself.  During IBD flares, the immune system is actually attacking the lining of the GI, causing it to slough off and get porous.  When you get this swiss cheese effect, you start having problems where food's not being absorbed correctly, and direct exposure of less processes food to the bloodstrem can create sensitivities, new allergies, and more.  It's like a big avalanche effect.  Insoluble fiber rarely helps - that's why vets usually go for bland food and a course of antibiotics first - response to that treatment keeps them looking for inflammatory causes for flareups.  IBD can only be definitively diagnosed via biopsy though educated guesses are often useful.  Once you have a diagnosis, prebiotics can help in a long term program of control (this includes soluble fibers, FOS, etc), but only if the dog can tolerate the ingredients.  Also, raw feeding is not a great idea for this condition because of the low functioning immune system that is usually associated with it.  Cooked meals are fine - as mudpuppy says, the less processed the better up to the point where the immune challenge is minimized.
  
• IBS that is fiber responsive.  IBS is a malfunction of the mechanics of the bowel - it contracts at the wrong times and in dogs usually moves food along too fast to remove water or properly absorb nutrients.  Its causes are unknown.  Triggers are different for every dog and can be multiple.  I always recommend a trigger diary for those struggling with an IBS dog.  Such a diary has saved me multiple trips to the vet and much pain and suffering to my dog, many times.  I put up a template of a spreadsheet you can use, here: Pet HEalth Diary.  IBS that is fiber responsive means that the dog does need fiber - usually insoluble - to slow down the rate of water absorption.  Sometimes soluble fiber helps when the dog is not producing the proper gut flora to match the speed of bowel contractions.  Many times both will be required.  This is where experimentation is actually called for, unlike with IBD.  IBS is more frustating in that the triggers are more sublte many times, but it's also easier to control a flareup once you have a general sense of what works.  Flares are also slower in coming on, and not life threatening.
• IBS, non fiber responsive.  This one is the most frustrating of all because it's hard to get on top of a flare once it starts.  I had a female BC with this.  Raw feeding is what happened to help her most.  And stress, which is the least easy to control, was her biggest trigger.  I talk to her current owner frequently and he keeps her on a good grain free diet, but still has more flares than I did when she was on prey model.

brookcove

I don't know what is meant by "internet experts" but Sabine, Monica, and Dr. Remilliard are all real people with a lot of respect among the scholarly set.  Their results speak for themselves.

The term used was "internet personalities" and does not include those you've listed.  It does include people on message boards who claim and dispense knowledge not backed up by anything, other than reported personal experiences.  That would include you and me.  The difference being that I share scientific journal information that can be taken to a vet and discussed while pursuing or considering a course of treatment and I respond to an individual about their particular dog and share only what has worked for my particular dogs while always advising consultation with a certified, veterinary professional. 

And to be fair, if we're talking creds, Dr, Remilliard operates petDIETS.com. She offers homecooked recipes tailored to your specific dog, with regards to medical history, breed, lifestyle, info that you should provide. She has also been pres of ACVN (American College of Vetrinary Nutritionists), is a CVN, and chief vet at the Angel Memorial Pet Hospital, with a personal specialty in diets for animals with ailments and chronic conditions. She has been in the field of pet and small animal nutrition for more than a couple of decades. She is not against feeding raw, generally, or homecooked but she is a stickler for making sure it is balanced for the pet. Normally, she used to recommend using any commercial food that you would feel comfortable with but has gotten into designing recipes in order to answer the demand for such.

At one point, people misleadingly thought that she was support by or was influenced by the pet food industry. It is the other way around. A number of ACVN graduates later got jobs in the private sector and while they can't always win against the accountants at Nutro or Purina, they can do the best they can for the formulas.

And of course, there are the other internet sources with varying levels of creds.

I'm not Remilliard's cheerleader but if you want to talk creds, she is exemplary in what should be necessary. IMO.

Very good points Ron, and she's a DR (which is a personal preference of mine).

If you (the proverbial, lurking you) would like to have your vet explore the possibility and have the ability to develop a diet based on your dog's conditions as well as having the resource to consult with other nutritional professionals, BalanceIT, has a veterinary site that offers more choices and allows for development of diets based on conditions the dog has or they suspect the dog has.  This of course, is for vets, but you can provide the info to your vet and see if they would work with them to develop a specifically tailored diet for your dog.  Info available here:

 https://secure.balanceit.com/_vets/index.php 

 The service is run by DVM Consulting, bios and additional information about their credentials available here:

http://dvmconsulting.com/consultants.html 

The difference being that I share scientific journal information that can be taken to a vet and discussed while pursuing or considering a course of treatment and I respond to an individual about their particular dog and share only what has worked for my particular dogs while always advising consultation with a certified, veterinary professional.

Yeah, okay.  I thought I usually do that.  I seem to remember the last few posts on this particular topic being about how to record information for your vet?  And finding a professional to help you out?  And "translating" information I've read myself in peer reviewed articles?

Is there anyone else out there who thinks my posts have been irresponsibly lacking in these points?  Because I can certainly shut up.  There's a lot I could do with my time, and it's not going to get any better the next couple of months.