William Cusick: Dangers of feeding raw.

That is very intereting.  my golden retriever, honey, won't touch raw meat.  guess she takes after me and wants it cvooked.  i tried giving mine raw tidbit, but they didn't care for them. 

Interesting article and I have read from other canid experts that nDNA, which more closely determines what a canid is than mtDNA, shows the dog to be more similar to a coyote or jackal in structure and physiological control. But Wayne had studied one locus of mtDNA and found a striking similarity between dogs and wolves, though not an exact match and everyone jumped on to that and assumed that their dogs were barely domesticated wolves. And most who have said this have no background in genetics, let alone canid genetics. But bravo on the idea that there is no one size fits all diet.

ron2

But bravo on the idea that there is no one size fits all diet.

Not sure I want to get into the rest of his article and having looked at some 'breed specific' recommendations let's just say that it is important to find out what works for your dog.

I have a mutt with some stronger breed appearances (dane and boxer) and then some unknowns (bird dog/hound) he probably doesn't have a 'dominant' breed so do I feed the dane or the boxer or the bird dog?

His allergies eliminate many foods anyway.

And I question going back to a breed origin to choose foods when that breed has existed for hundreds of years outside it's original environment. Or it is a relatively new breed that is a mix of ancient breeds.  I appreciate his efforts though

As for raw - my dog has eaten some raw since he was probably 8 mos old., loves it, has never had any gastric problems from it and now that I am feeding him some raw meals each week he is thriving.

so back to what Ron said - feed your dog what it needs and what works best for it.

what dangers? more dogs have been killed by kibble in the past few years than by raw meat.

 Interesting article. Here's some more thoughts on the subject, taken from a discussion between a veterinarian and a proponent of raw feeding. I'm posting comments from the veterinarian about canine and wolf DNA, why most vets don't recommend a raw diet, and how the canine digestive system is different from a wolf.

http://healthforumfordogsandcats.yuku.com/topic/2076/t/Raw-Meat-Diets.html;

Regarding the percent difference in canine versus grey wolf DNA, 0.2% is correct, approximating what the consensus us, which at first glance to the untrained eye would seem like a tiny difference. As a person trained in biological sciences subsequently well versed in the understanding of the vastness of the size of a DNA molecule, I assume that you understand that a variation of 0.2% creates a very significant difference between the DNA sequences. Considering that the canine genome consists of 2.5 billion nucleotide base pairs, a difference of 0.2% translates to domestic canine and wolf DNA differring by 50,000 base pairs, which translates to significant gene variation at all of levels of existance.

What first turned me off from raw was some very intensely ill cases I saw as an emergency vet from salmonella, e. coli, campylobacter, and other food poisoning pathogens that resulted from the feeding of raw diets. Granted, I did not see a ton of cases, but some that I did see were very bad, even to the point of life threatening. So while you say that this does not happen, my clinical experiences strongly differs with you. What's more, if you talk most vets, a fairly high percentage have had at least a few experiences with this and remains probably the single most significant reason most vets are not advocates of the diet.

Physiologically, the canine GI system is virtually identical to the human, even in length when considered in proportion to body mass. Proportionally, the small and large intestines are only slightly shorter in dogs. Even so, there is no physiological reason why this would contribute to being better equipped to deal with pathogens and parasites, which is clearly evident in large number of daily cases of dietary indescretion related diarrhea and vomiting. The ability of the wolf to handle raw meat pathogens has nothing to do with a shorter GI tract, but instead stems from a very low (and thereofre acidic) gastric pH of 1. The domestic canine  gastric pH varies from breed to breed but generally is about 2.7, much more resembling the gastric pH of people.

jessies_mom

What first turned me off from raw was some very intensely ill cases I saw as an emergency vet from salmonella, e. coli, campylobacter, and other food poisoning pathogens that resulted from the feeding of raw diets

These types of comments somewhat bemuse me, as I have known dogs that have become ill from campylobacter and salmonella that have never been fed anything other than a kibble diet.  These illnesses are not exclusive to a raw diet, as some veterinarians would have you believe.

 Just popping in to say that kibble or raw are not the only two options.  I've been very happy with the results of feeding a homecooked diet to my two dogs.  I do feed raw occasionally and the dogs handle it fine, but I'm not prepared to feed a 100% raw diet.  I do miss the results I got with Woobie on raw, he was really energetic, perfect poops (our constant challenge) and great clean teeth.  But the nagging worry about the issues mentioned in the article and above was too much for me to convert completely.  Homecooked w/raw at times is my happy compromise.  Each owner should make an informed decision based on their dogs' individual needs and medical condition.  My vet was supportive of raw but not with bones due to the amount of blockages he'd operated on (including raw bones).  I used a pre-ground product from Hare-Today.com that included ground bones, problem solved.

And most who have said this have no background in genetics, let alone canid genetics

Most but not all, Ron!    Just like to tease you.

I have no, uh, dog in this fight, as I am squarely in the "different strokes for different folks" camp.  I do know two strong "prey modelers" who are, respectively, a genetics researcher (PhD) and a department head for NIH immunology.  Research can go both ways on this question so my feeling is that it's still up in the air - no answers are available other than do what works for you.  I personally have one "raw meats only" dog, because he does well on nothing else - but I am not a prey modeler as I supplement and stay away from "variety" for his sake.  The other dogs all eat a combo raw meaty bones and cooked veggies and/or grains diet.

You have to stay where your comfort level is, including the results you see in your dog, or you will not commit to what you are doing.  Bouncing around and not being consistent with any one plan is almost worse than feeding something inappropriate. 

tzu_mom

These types of comments somewhat bemuse me, as I have known dogs that have become ill from campylobacter and salmonella that have never been fed anything other than a kibble diet.  These illnesses are not exclusive to a raw diet, as some veterinarians would have you believe.

  It's true that dogs can get these bacteria from kibble. Both the incidences you relate and the incidences this vet discussed are anecdotal, and it's unfair to make generalizations based on that type of evidence. He also doesn't approve of most commercial foods;

"Trust me, there is no veterinarian/pet food industry conspiracy with designs to suppress the raw food industry. In fact, I loathe most commercial pet food manufacturers for the crap they put in our pet's foods, and would love to see a vast majority of these despicable companies go out of business."

" My other issue with raw diets is that I am not convinced that there is any greater benefit than simply feeding the animals preservative free, grain free, holistic, cooked diets with wholesome ingredients. Many raw food miracle stories come from owners that went from Old Roy, Pedigree, or some other garbage supermarket brand, to raw on the advice of their groomer, without ever having first tried holistic cooked diets. For every one of those stories you hear like this, I can tell you 100 more about patients that were changed to being fed foods like Solid Gold, Evangers, Fromm, Canidae, Felidae, and the like, all with virtually non-existent risks of food poisoning or parasites."

Me. I've always been baffled with raw diet idea. I love the idea, and have attempted it a few times, nearly every time I've attempted it, with different things, it's always been a bad reaction.

So, I've pretty much given up, exception is that my little chihuahua loves the Primal pheasant formula and does ok on it, and only it.

I always mix kibbles and raw meat, all my dogs were fed that way. Meat in the morning and dry food in the evening, always after their walks. I never had any problems, they were always very healthy... And of course, the meat goes much better than the kibbles...

(The kibbles are Royal Canine, and I buy the same meat for them as I buy for myself)

I've heard many times the pro and contra debate, but I really believe that raw meat is the best choice. Or very gently cooked meat... 

Physiologically, the canine GI system is virtually identical to the human,

The human GI system is designed to receive well-chewed, mixed with starter digestive enzymes foods, to pass them out of the stomach rapidly, and then to ferment the foods for a fairly long period of time in the intestine. Doggy system is almost the complete opposite- they swallow big chunks of unchewed meat, it sits in the stomach acid for many hours, then is rapidly passed through the intestines. Dogs are protected from food poisoning by the long sit in the acid of the stomach, which few toxins and bacteria survive, and the short period of time the food is in the intestine. You, on the other hand, can grow a lot of salmonella during the many hours any ingested bacteria has to romp around in your digestive system. Dogs are also protected by their propensity to vomit. Eat first, puke it later if anything goes awry. By the time you, a human, usually notice something has gone awry your meal has moved out of the stomach and you can't just vomit it up.

There are risks with any diet. The other health benefits from raw for most dogs far outweigh any slight risk of food poisoning or bone injuries.

Wow, there is a lot of misinformation and wild claims made in this article. 

What exactly are these 72,000 "chemicals" that meat is exposed to?  And how does cooking "break them down"?  And the writer of this article clearly demonstrates his ignorance when he states that chimpanzees eat nothing but bananas and leaves.  They in fact eat an omnivorous diet consisting of many types of fruits, plants, roots and some animal protein.  Why does it matter whether the dog is more closely related to wolves or jackals or coyotes?  Don't they all eat raw meat?  Was the cooked meat that domestic dogs have eaten for  all these years fresh, prime cuts of meat?  They have been scavenging through garbage, eating their own poop, licking their rear ends and hunting and eating vermin all this time as well, yet their systems can no longer handle bacteria? What exactly are the digestive and glandular changes that he claims have been caused by dogs eating cooked food?

jenns

Wow, there is a lot of misinformation and wild claims made in this article. 

What exactly are these 72,000 "chemicals" that meat is exposed to?  And how does cooking "break them down"?  And the writer of this article clearly demonstrates his ignorance when he states that chimpanzees eat nothing but bananas and leaves.  They in fact eat an omnivorous diet consisting of many types of fruits, plants, roots and some animal protein.  Why does it matter whether the dog is more closely related to wolves or jackals or coyotes?  Don't they all eat raw meat?  Was the cooked meat that domestic dogs have eaten for  all these years fresh, prime cuts of meat?  They have been scavenging through garbage, eating their own poop, licking their rear ends and hunting and eating vermin all this time as well, yet their systems can no longer handle bacteria? What exactly are the digestive and glandular changes that he claims have been caused by dogs eating cooked food?

Definitely agreed.

 This statement I really find hard to believe...

" My other issue with raw diets is that I am not convinced that there is any greater benefit than simply feeding the animals preservative free, grain free, holistic, cooked diets with wholesome ingredients. Many raw food miracle stories come from owners that went from Old Roy, Pedigree, or some other garbage supermarket brand, to raw on the advice of their groomer, without ever having first tried holistic cooked diets. For every one of those stories you hear like this, I can tell you 100 more about patients that were changed to being fed foods like Solid Gold, Evangers, Fromm, Canidae, Felidae, and the like, all with virtually non-existent risks of food poisoning or parasites."

I switched from Pro Plan Selects, to Canidae, to raw.  And I've seen nothing but good results.  I'm not sure I know anyone who would feed Old Roy or Pedigree and be so concerned about what their dog was eating to switch them to a raw diet.  I think the only thing these people are concerned about is if they can afford the food that they are feeding the dog.  I mean seriously, how many people who feed something like that are even going to look into feeding raw or even know it is a possiblity???

I'm not going to get into the huge debate, but I don't see how feeding kibble can be any better in any way (except for being more convenient) than feeding raw.