Teaching contacts

I don't have any advice for targeting, but your thread makes me think of one of my trainer's Dobes.  In answer to the question "Was that difficult?" the dog stomps on one of those "Easy" buttons from Staples.  "That was Easy!" Targeting has some funny implementations along w/the useful ones.  :)

Feed the behavior you want 2o2o, 4 on the floor or whatever. The longer the time on the plank, the better, so be sure to have a release command.  Be sure to incorporate front crosses so the dog understand what switching sides will look like.

Start incorporating a tippy or buja board for unstable familarity when teeter training starts.

Again, feed the behavior you want. I can't stress that more than anything else. 

We started on a small plank of wood with about 2 inch height. Our school emphasized 2o2o more for safety and control rather than speed, you can always do a quick release. 

As for pain due to the dog's skeletal and muscular structure, typically long dogs (corgis and dachshunds) were switched to a running contact and due to the angle of the AF, you practice with a lower number of repetitions as compared to the DW which is a shallower angle.

 miranadobe- I wish we had a Staples here so I could get an "Easy" button- it'd be a cool trick to teach the dogs!
 

Thanks for the suggestions, jdata. Is it better to start off with a 2o2o before going onto a running contact? Or does it not matter?

It's definitely easier to go from 20/20 contacts to running than the other way around. Basically you just start to release the dog sooner and sooner until they're essentially doing a running contact.  Your success rate with contacts tends to be quite a bit higher when you train a 20/20, especially with larger dogs who's natural stride tends to make it easy for them to take off right above the yellow.

You are correct, though, in that the 20/20 creates a bit of strain on larger dogs -- it's pretty much only a concern on the A-frame, though, because of the more extreme angle.  It's completely acceptable to have different requirements for different contact pieces.  For example, you could teach a running A-frame and a 20/20 dog walk.

The easiest way to teach a running frame seems to be through the use of stride regulators.  The goal is to teach your dog the proper stride and with practice he develops muscle memory and will automatically touch the contact zone on his way down.  The most popular stride regulators are PVC "bumps" placed in stratigic spots on both the up & down zones.  You could find books/videos on Cleanrun.com outlining this method of training.

I didn't have anything but club equipment available to me when I was training Luke, so we just kept plugging away on it and I rewarded the good performances.  Over time he found his stride on the frame and now has a 99% correct performance on that obstacle.  The biggest thing I had to do was to stop babysitting the down contact so much on the frame, as this generally resulted in him stopping at the top and scootching his way down (a huge time waster).  When I switched to driving him forward and keeping his focus down to the ground (by using a tennis ball thrown to the bottom of the frame) we had much more success.

We still struggle with the dog walk in competition (it's 95% in practice, but only about 30% in competition) and the reason for this is because I never trained a proper 20/20 for this obstacle.  I'm paying for it now!  We didn't have problems in the novice and open levels because we had the time to slow down and trot over the dog walk.  Times are much tighter in elite and we must now run the contact.  Because he is not proofed to stop at the bottom, Luke's natural stride often hits about 1" above the contact zone and then lands on the floor just past the bottom.  VERY frustrating.

I just ordered my very own dog walk to have at home so that we can do some serious training on this obstacle.  Failure to perform the dog walk contact has been the reason behind about 90% of our NQ's lately.  Because Luke much prefers running contacts, my first method of training will be to use hoops & targets to drive his focus DOWN -- He leaves the contact early because his head & focus are *up* and looking forward to the next fun obstacle.  If that doesn't work we'll try box training -- and if THAT doesn't work I'll have to try to get a 20/20 performance from him.

Let me just say, I am SO looking forward to doing agility with Kaiser b/c I just don't see having these same issues with a small dog!  lol

There are many different methods of doing contacts in agility- running contacts taught with foot targets, 2on2off, 4 on the floor, 1 rear toe on, etc.  Go investigate them and decide what would be best for YOUR dog's personality and structure. Probably the best option for most dogs is to use a foot-target to get a running contact on the a-frame and do 2on2off on the dogwalk and teeter.

 Jacks are notorious for jumping over the yellow on the AF.

I think the 1RTO is basically a lazy 2o2o. 

I was thinking about starting to do running contacts but after looking at my instructor's dogs, especially Zippity, why bother? She pointed out some courses are just for running and there are some courses for technique. Zippity bests a lot of running contact dogs with her 2o2o. Yeah, she'll do a quick release from time to time but at the NE USDAA Regionals, she held the 2o2o a bit too long and was still faster by 2 seconds over the next dog! Now at Indiana, Zippity and her just kicked a$$!

Sure my dog isn't Zippity - I have run Zachery from another litter and he is faster in the wide open - but there are other ways to do well without using a running contact.

Sorry to go OT:

 Have any of you started training on the 24" poles yet?

Vinia

miranadobe- I wish we had a Staples here so I could get an "Easy" button- it'd be a cool trick to teach the dogs!

It's a big enough button to stomp on, too.  I used to have one - if I find it, I'll get your address and mail it to you.  (International mail isn't a big deal.)

I would clicker train the behavior, especially with a greyhound, because the dog might not voluntarily offer that whole behavior initially.  "Feed the behavior you want" works.  But, it works faster when you have a system that tells the dog at the instant it performed the behavior, "yes, that was it".  Otherwise, you could accidentally be feeding the dog for any of the behaviors he is doing simultaneously;-)  Sort of like trying to teach "sit" and accidentally having a dog "sit and raise right paw" instead.  You can also C/T approximations of what you want, and only attach a cue, such as "hit it" when the dog is doing the contact correctly. 

I agree with the response farther up the thread about not doing this on the A-frame with such a large dog - however, you can C/T a more modified behavior that still has the dog making a good contact, but not straining anything.   

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1120

I don't necessarily like the table/plank idea in the above article unless it's really secure.

I was thinking about starting to do running contacts but after looking at my instructor's dogs, especially Zippity, why bother? She pointed out some courses are just for running and there are some courses for technique. Zippity bests a lot of running contact dogs with her 2o2o

many people are switching to running a-frames because  stopping at the bottom causes damage over time to the dog's front end and back.

mudpuppy

many people are switching to running a-frames because  stopping at the bottom causes damage over time to the dog's front end and back.

That maybe true, any physical activity on the human and the dog will always cause wear and tear.  So has long as agility has been around we're talking since the 70s. IIRC. Out of all the dogs, what is the percentage of actual injury caused by the 2o2o or 1rto? Sure, I agree some breeds are more susceptible than others mainly due to structure and strength but can anyone tell me actual numbers? Regardless if you are stopping or doing running contacts, the forces applied to the joints are still affected when running up and down the ramps which I recall a lot of trainers have started lowering their reps on the AF itself due the angle. Dogs like Zippity have been doing this for several years and she has yet to be injured from a fast 2o2o on the AF although she has been injured because a Golden Retreiver ran her over when she was 10 month pup and currently she is sidelined for a pulled hamstring which the USDAA Finals are coming up. But nothing because of 2o2o contacts. My instructor sees the concern but she knows her fellow competitors do it for "time" not for safety of the dog.

If I ever switch to a running contact, it won't because of 'preventive measures' but more so for time. There I said it, I am competitive, I am male and when I get critical for more performance I'll switch to a running contact. Until 2o2o is the criteria of the facility and I'll adhere to it until she or I deem necessary to switch. She has only told owners of long back dogs, weak dogs, or weak structured dogs to do running contacts. I am not a monkey do, monkey see type of individual.

Thanks for all the replies!

 I've already trained solid paw and nose contacts with Pocket, so it shouldn't be too hard to clicker train a 2o2o.It sounds like that is the way to go and I can work up to a running contact later if I need it later. At the momet, when we've done the DW at the dog park for fun-Pocket likes to leap off from close to the top, so I think she will need a deliberate target and stop before a release.

Do you normally use two cues for the contact and the release? Or is just the release cued?
 

Out of all the dogs, what is the percentage of actual injury caused by the 2o2o or 1rto? Sure, I agree some breeds are more susceptible than others mainly due to structure and strength but can anyone tell me actual numbers? Regardless if you are stopping or doing running contacts, the forces applied to the joints are still affected when running up and down the ramps which I recall a lot of trainers have started lowering their reps on the AF itself due the angle. Dogs like Zippity have been doing this for several years and she has yet to be injured from a fast 2o2o on the AF although she has been injured because a Golden Retreiver ran her over when she was 10 month pup and currently she is sidelined for a pulled hamstring which the USDAA Finals are coming up. But nothing because of 2o2o contacts. My instructor sees the concern but she knows her fellow competitors do it for "time" not for safety of the dog.

If I ever switch to a running contact, it won't because of 'preventive measures' but more so for time. There I said it, I am competitive, I am male and when I get critical for more performance I'll switch to a running contact. Until 2o2o is the criteria of the facility and I'll adhere to it until she or I deem necessary to switch. She has only told owners of long back dogs, weak dogs, or weak structured dogs to do running contacts. I am not a monkey do, monkey see type of individual.

This is a disgusting attitude. Your first duty is to keep your dog as safe as possible. Lots of people have observed that dogs, particularly large dogs, take a beating on their body when they slam to a stop at the bottom of the A-frame. And these people, properly concerned about their dogs long-term health, seek a solution that allows their dog to happy, healthy, and run the a-frame correctly and get those Qs.