Dog afraid of clicker?

i saw a show on a bear rescue the other day. and the rescue lady had trained the bear to present his claws for cutting them. she used a whistle. i thought it was pretty smart. keeps your hands free too!

Yep, our clicker is there! I think it makes it a little quieter if you take it outside and click it a baskillion times. Enlist small children for this, but be far away from the dog!

Clickers do come with other sounds.  The one that I have makes the sound of crickets and ducks.  The sound is meant to be a marker, so any sound will do as long as it is constantly and consistently applied.

I would not look on this as a Clinker Training problem.  The dog has a fear of certain sounds and that is the behavior problem that should be addressed.

 One of the reasons I wanted to try tackling the clicker training again was so that I could work on addressing Keira's (many many many) fears with a more structured approach. She just seems to be developing more of them, and I need very badly to help her out before she becomes afraid of everything. I thought first step would be to prime the clicker so I could use it to tell her she's been good when she doesn't react to something scary. But if she's afraid of the clicker too....

Of course, now I have to take ANOTHER step back- she's now afraid of me when I have treats in my hand, since I had treats when I made all those scary clicker noises yesterday. She'll only eat the treats if they're dropped on the ground now, so that won't work at all.

Yes, I suppose this is probably more behavior problem than training problem. 

fiery_dragon

She'll only eat the treats if they're dropped on the ground now, so that won't work at all.

Expecting no behavior, right before you drop the treat or as you drop the treat, say "Yes".  That wil be your initial marker.  Once the dog gets it (the relationship of the "Yes" and treat), transition to another acceptable sound keeping in mind your goal is to have the marker be a mechanical sound. 

 Wouldn't that be too big of a step at this point?

When she sees me holding treats, she starts to back up, look for a place to run and generally get nervous. So if I dropped the treat, wouldn't it be saying "Yes, act afraid when I have a handful of treats" ?

I was thinking of getting her used to seeing me with the treats again first. Sitting facing away with a relaxed hand holding some treats. Let her come up and check it out own her own and reward her if she doesn't jump away (if that doesn't work, have a treat on the ground near my hand). Then squat holding treats, face her holding treats, eventually stand holding treats, etc. 

Shouldn't I do that before I work on making an associative signal? She picks up fears very fast and loses them very slowly. I really don't want her to see me with treats as a bad thing.

You are expecting certain behaviors before the dog is rewarded with a treat.  There should be no expectation of a certain behavior.  Remember the dog's fear is the sound and that sound is associated with your behavior.  Change what you did.  Is the pup afraid when you put the dog's dinner dish down?  If not, put the treats in the dinner dish so the dog sees that something great is going to happen.  Change the treats so the treats look different.  Up the value of the treats.  Make the treats seem like they are coming from heaven, drop or roll them.  Take the dog for a walk and then drop treats along the way.  Again, your goal is to create a positive association with "Yes" and getting a treat.  Make it simple and no big deal.

Clciker training doesn't have to have an actual clikcer. You could make a click sound with your mouth that way you don't even have to bring anything with you.

Go to mightymitedoggear.com/gpage.html3.html      That is a clicker that has digital sounds in it and my puppies love it.

You can muffle the sound by clikcing in your pocket. Or you could use a ball point pen or a squeaky toy.

Thank you all for your help. I tried every combination of verbal que and treating I could think of. No matter what way I go about treating her, she still seems wary of me + treat at all- even if it's thrown, in her food dish, very valuable, rolled etc. It doesn't matter if I'm sitting standing facing away, or anything else.

However, perhaps in desperation, I tried something else. I took a clicky pen (thanks Mechanical Angel!) and toys. It was amazing how fast she picked up on it! I'd have toys behind my back, click, and bring out a toy and play for a few seconds, then hide it, click, bring it (or another one) out and repeat. Very very soon, she'd hear the click and get all excited for the toy. I even started getting her to look at me waiting for the click + toy.

Still, if I click + treat, she gets very nervous, but if I click + toy, it's super fun exciting time and the best game in the world!

 If treats from me are still scary but toys are fun and she's picking up on the clicker, can't I stay with the toys and gradually introduce treats?

fiery_dragon

Thank you all for your help. I tried every combination of verbal que and treating I could think of. No matter what way I go about treating her, she still seems wary of me + treat at all- even if it's thrown, in her food dish, very valuable, rolled etc. It doesn't matter if I'm sitting standing facing away, or anything else.

However, perhaps in desperation, I tried something else. I took a clicky pen (thanks Mechanical Angel!) and toys. It was amazing how fast she picked up on it! I'd have toys behind my back, click, and bring out a toy and play for a few seconds, then hide it, click, bring it (or another one) out and repeat. Very very soon, she'd hear the click and get all excited for the toy. I even started getting her to look at me waiting for the click + toy.

Still, if I click + treat, she gets very nervous, but if I click + toy, it's super fun exciting time and the best game in the world!

 If treats from me are still scary but toys are fun and she's picking up on the clicker, can't I stay with the toys and gradually introduce treats?

The toy is great, but it's not so great for good operant conditioning because it interrupts the behavior and can't be given in succession in a matter of seconds.  It may work to create a positive association with the clicker itself, but when you want to start shaping behaviors, the toy might set you back.  If she is leery from taking food from you, I'd start by hand-feeding her meals to establish more trust. 

Liesje

The toy is great, but it's not so great for good operant conditioning because it interrupts the behavior and can't be given in succession in a matter of seconds.  It may work to create a positive association with the clicker itself, but when you want to start shaping behaviors, the toy might set you back.  If she is leery from taking food from you, I'd start by hand-feeding her meals to establish more trust. 

I agree and a toy reward is used but for more advanced training.  What I don't understand is the not taking of food.  Can you explain dinner time and also snack time.  From all that you described, snack time is totally ruined and that is not good.  I still think you are trying to do too much and going to fast.  Remember you are working on charging the marker and at this time you are trying to define a workable marker that will eventually transition to a mechanical marker.  Don't expect any behavior.

 I was very seriously considering hand feeding her anyway, thanks for the advice.

I realize that food is more helpful in eventually shaping behaviors. I suppose I worded that wrong. I was more asking if I could use toys as a sort of a bridge to help me out.

Since toys so far are fun, helping her learn, and making her want to spend time with me, can I use the toys to establish the basics of the basics -- clicking is a good thing, looking at me gets a click which brings more good things. Once she has this down and gets all excited when she hears a click, can I then begin sneaking in high value treats until she gets just as comfortable with click-treat as she is with click-toy? I know it's an extra step before starting to shape behaviors, but could it help? (Not suggesting that it take the place of hand feeding to gain trust...)
 

Definitely use the toys, for play AND training.

For clicker training though, you need to spend a lot of time "charging" the clicker.  Even dogs that have clicker trained for years usually get like 10 or so clicker charges at the beginning of each session.  When I start a clicker session with Kenya, we charge for 10 clicks or so, then review basic stuff for a bit before we even start training something new or free shaping.  You can't really charge a clicker with a toy, and you want to make sure this dog understands what the click means before using it to train.  That's why I'd use toys for building confidence and hand-feeding to tackle the food thing.  Then reintroduce a high value treat and begin charging the clicker. 

DPU

Can you explain dinner time and also snack time.

Snack: She gets very excited when she knows you're getting her a treat. Usually she'll take the treat from your hand or the ground and run off somewhere else to eat it. She does have food issues. If it's a big treat, she may not eat it right away- preferring to sit near it and eye you suspiciously if you happen to look her way. Bad- yes. One of the things I need to work on.

Food: Ready to cringe? Usually the food bowl is down all the time (bad human, bad human!). She doesn't overeat. she eats a little at a tie whenever she gets hungry. When it's time to refill the bowl, she gets excited, and will run along with me until I put the bowl down, though she usually doesn't eat right away unless she's very hungry.

DPU

Don't expect any behavior.

I'm sorry if I'm asking a lot of questions. I probably seem pretty slow- I'm just trying to make sure I understand. From what I've said, what behavior do you think I'm expecting from her? Not running away from me? When she runs, she doesn't come back, she finds some place to lay down, which makes working on association kind of hard.

With the toys, I'm not expecting behavior either. Or trying anyway. Her looking at me in expectation of a click just started to happen on its own, so I rewarded it. I'm keeping the sessions short - just a couple of minutes so that it stays fun. Yes, I probably did too much today- I just got excited when I found something that seemed to be working. I'm trying not to expect a behavior at this point. I'm just trying to associate the clicking pen with good things.

I know I have a lot of work to do, and sometimes it's hard to know where to start.