Liver Failure Reversal Diet

Peoople used to think I was crazy for cooking for my dogs (especially when they knew how many I have!).  Now, not so much.  Callie is right, it's so worth it to work with an animal dietitian.  I'm reading Monica Segal's latest book right now and intend to get the first one next.  It's changing my thinking somewhat about winging it when it comes to canine nutrition. 

I've done very well and have encouraged people to do what I did for many years, doing thorough research and using my own spreadsheets and whatnot - but when I used a consulting service (Mordanna's), it was so easy!  And I think there's a lot to be said for not having to do all that research oneself.  

People like Monica and Mordanna offer whole health based approaches and that's so important.  It's more than meeting the standard nutritional needs of a dog, plugging in this ingredient and that ingredient.  Heck, I've got a spreadsheet that does that.  It's about seeing nutrition as the key to optimum health, to borrow a term from Monical Segal's book. 

calliecritturs

PLEASE folks -- give Monica Segal a try.  She will write a diet specifically for YOUR dog (and she will work with your vet as well) for around $100 US.  (she's Canadian)

  I agree that Monica Segal is great; but she charges $250 for a consultation;

http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?cPath=24_28&products_id=69

  here's her liver friendly diet;

State vet schools are also beginning to offer very good nutritional consultations too (from veterinary nutritionists, not just the normal vets) if you live near one.  I know that at least our does, and a lot of it involves good, proven herbs/supplements, homecooked diets, etc. Things are, thank goodness, moving away from only saying "try xxxx variety of SD" ;) !

whtsthfrequency

State vet schools are also beginning to offer very good nutritional consultations too (from veterinary nutritionists, not just the normal vets) if you live near one.  I know that at least our does, and a lot of it involves good, proven herbs/supplements, homecooked diets, etc. Things are, thank goodness, moving away from only saying "try xxxx variety of SD" ;) !

 I do agree that these veternary specialists are a terrific resource - I'm grateful to anyone who offers their services in this way.  I  have myself gotten the help of a friend who is a veterinary nutritionist, to "run the numbers" for me on various diet approaches.

However, though you are right that conventional medicine is acknowledging the role of holistics, it is still hampered by it's way of looking at health care.  Conventional medicine is about analyzing symptoms, identifying underlying causes, and treating them until the dog is asymptomatic.  This is a GOOD thing.  Someone needs to be good at this stuff.  

But, when it comes to a dog who presents with chronic loose stools, let's say the dog is treated with psyllium to increase water absorption.  That works and for conventional medicine, that's the end of it.  The vet will probably make a guess as to why it worked, and say something about weaning the dog off later, but if nothing else helps, then psyllium will be a permanent part of the dog's diet forever.

Is such a dog suffering from a psyllium husk deficiency?  

Holistic medicine asks questions like these:  What is it about this dog that  made him present these symptoms in response to these stressors?  How can we prevent it in the future, or other problems arising from these same characteristics?  As a dog owner, I've been frustrated trying to get answers to these questions from conventional vets, and now as I begin studying human medicine myself, I understand that the answers to these are actually outside the realm of the discipline.  It's okay - there is a place for both approaches.

whtsthfrequency

State vet schools are also beginning to offer very good nutritional consultations too (from veterinary nutritionists, not just the normal vets) if you live near one.  I know that at least our does, and a lot of it involves good, proven herbs/supplements, homecooked diets, etc. Things are, thank goodness, moving away from only saying "try xxxx variety of SD" ;) !

And your school's nutritionist ROCKS!  And she's $150 less than Ms. Segal!    What a deal! 

 "And your school's nutritionist ROCKS!  And she's $150 less than Ms. Segal!    What a deal!"

Many vet schools don't offer that service; the one where I take Jessie to see a veterinary dermatologist doesn't. Monica's price also includes a month's worth of support after the consultation. Jessie sees the dermatologist every six months for rechecks and sometimes there's no charge. Why; because it's the vet school that sets the pricing policies; the specialist working for the vet school is already drawing a salary from them. Monica and Mordana have to rely on the consultation fees as their source of income.

 Mordanna ranges around $100.  Well worth it as I said.  She offers terrific ongoing support.

VT is a great place - it's where my old vet took HER dogs when they needed treatment.  A friend of mine had a dog suddenly start seizing after seven years of nothing.  Something about what was happening made his vet say, "take him up there TODAY."  Although it was Sunday, they were able to see his dog and determined that he was suffering from tick disease, which had caused an inflammation of his brain stem.  Amazing.

 Hi and welcome to the forum; I am so sorry your boy is in liver failure. This is an old thread and rescuedogs hasn't posted on this forum for some time. The diet she posted was probably based on the liver diet by Dr. Jean Dodds. I'm including a link to that diet. It is better because it has some supplements which make it more balanced. Also on the page is information about supplements that can help the liver. The first part of the page has information about kidney health, so you need to scroll down a little until you get to the liver diet;

Kidney and Liver 

 I hope your sweet boy gets to feeling better.

Janice's suggestions are right on target -- I've worked a lot with dogs on steroids - so I PM'd you a bit of information and my email.  I'm happy to help you.

Getting those liver enzymes down can be done. 

Hi,

It's such a relief to find a blog like this. My Molly is a 7 year old border collie. For the last 3/4/ weeks she had been very picky with food and had vomited a little. She also got quite thin. I didn't rush to the vet because i thought i knew what was going on...... i had back surgery 4 weeks ago and my parents were looking after Molly. i thought the pickiness with food was because i was in hospital; she tends to refuse food if i'm not around or she goes on hunger strike for a day pr so if she gets something tasty and hopes for more....e.g. a little gravy over kibble and she digs in her heels and waits to see if she can get more. I thought this also explained the weight loss. the vomiting i put down to the fact that my mum was trying to give her table scraps and this made her sick....she's also had a sensitive stomach since she was a puppy. She has always been a hyperactive mischievous dog. the last two weeks she got very quiet....even when i got home from the hospital.....i thought i was getting the silent treatment. last week i thought she looked a little off and on closer inspection her eyes looked very yellow. her gums and ears were very yellow too and looking around the dog run i saw her pee was nearly brown. i rushed her to the vet. they kept her on a drip for two nights and gave her antibiotics. on the Monday the did blood tests and said her liver values were really high. she had a scan on Tuesday and the vets said she needed a biopsy and possibly open surgery for a biopsy...even though the ultra sound showed no blockages. they said her pancreas looked a little big and her gallbladder looked a little swollen too but the blood tests didn't show issues here....mainly with liver. I've had insurance for her since she was 8 weeks old but when she turned 7 i had to pay the excess and 35%. She turned 7 in July 13th.i explained to the vet that i just didn't have the money to continue with tests. I've spent way more than i can really afford already. She advised me to try rest and medication...this one vet also said that irregardless of biopsy results she would be on the special diet and meds because of her bloods (cant understand why they would go ahead with expensive biopsy if they knew this). i was heart broken (still am). When i spoke to another vet, my usual vet....she more or less told me that molly wasn't getting better and i should consider putting her down that i was being cruel letting her suffer. they kept her in for a few more days on the drip.

yesterday i rang to see how she was doing but the vet wasn't available to talk.....but the veterinary nurse said her jaundice seemed a tiny bit better.....she wasn't on the drip and hadn't vomited in the last 4 days. She said molly was eating but wouldn't eat the hills i/d diet but if offered chicken or rice she eat the hand and all. she told me she was pottering in and out of her crate and barking at the cats (poor cats....i hope they weren't ill) and that she sat with her paws crossed watching the vets work. This doesn't sound like a dog on death's door....or am i being too optimistic. When she had her scan she was full of energy.....my dad came and had to pin her down to be still.....she did her usual biting of her lead (doesn't like if i'm not holding it). The nurse told me molly was peeing a lot more but wasn't vomiting and seemed perky.

I feel so torn. I want to think i can trust my vet but i feel that because i can't dish out tons on money they just tell me to put molly down.

I'm bring her home tomorrow and after doing a lot of research on the net i'm going to try try the home cooked diet. I just have a few questions for those who have cooked dog liver disease diets. Are there other foods i could add to the diet....e.g. white rice or boiled chicken, pasta, carrots etc? can i buy vitimens from normal health shop or do i need ones specifically for dogs (living in ireland). i feel she really needs to put on weight. she's down to 11kg...so thin. Would it be benifical to ground down the hill prescription diet and add a few scoops in?

Thanks for any help you guys can give. I'm so upset about poor mols. I'm trying to do my best......I know if she gets really bad then i can't let her suffer on......but i at least want to try.....despite the vets advice.

I'm so sorry your Molly is so ill.  I don't know much about home cooking for dogs but many do so with good results.  

There is a herbal supplement that you might want to add to help the liver.  It's called milk thistle.  I've used it for one of my dogs and my cousin with hepatitis C takes it too.  It's pretty benign.   I don't remember the dosage. You should be able to google the info.  

There is also a veterinarian prescribed supplement called Denamarin that contains milk thistle and SAM-E.  Both are said to help the liver.

Best of luck to you and your pup.  

It's actually pretty cool, Jackie that two of us who originally posted to this are still around.  Molliecollie -- you should be able to find milk thistle easily in Ireland - ask your Chemist.  SAM-e -- I'd think it would also be available -- if you want to email me I have more information at home callieatcritturs@yahoo.com -- that I can send you.

I suspect you're going to have to ponder what may have triggered this in order to lead yourself to a conclusion.  But there ARE things you can do for the liver.  One of the big suspicions would be an infection ... and they haven't given her an antibiotic?  

We can chat on some online program if you want -- so we can ask/answer questions back and forth.  (My husband is from Dundee, Scotland and his Mum was from Donegal -- so, I will enjoy chatting with you in any event and perhaps I can help.)

Everything Jackie said above is great -- I'm not sure NutraMaxx labs (which makes Denosyl and Marin) is active in the UK -- but I'm betting you can find SAM-e if we can figure out what it's called there.

hi JackieG and Calliecritturs,

Thanks so much for responding. I brought molly home last Friday with a mixed prognosis and a bag of pills from the vet. One of them is containing. milk thistle. Poor thing, she was so happy to be home but not impressed with getting a mini bath as she really smelled of urine being in a crate most of the time at the vets. I think she spent a lot of time lying in pee - I know she is drinking more and peeing more frequently but still....and at least it isn't an issue at home because she has a huge outdoor run and bog indoor kennel. She seems much happier. Her coat is much improved and her eyes, gums and ears are much less jaundice - almost to the point I'd really not notice it now If she hadn't been so ill before and I'm actively inspecting them ( a couple of times a day - can't help it as I'm still really worried). She is taking her medication well. They gave me Hill i/d diet but said she wasn't eating well at the vet and I'd be lucky to get 60% of it into her. i asked the vet could i grind it up and mix it into other food - she looked at me as if I had ten heads. But that's what i did - crushed it with a hammer and measured the daily amounts out. She's eating every bit of it since last Friday - once its mixed into the potato/sweet potato and fish diet above. She will also take rice, porridge oats, carrots and a little plain chicken.

What do you guys think? Would i be better to just strictly follow the potato/fish/veg diet above or am I ok once i give the prescribed liver diet and foods that wont stress liver?

Molly is doing well - she's not as bouncy (my nice way of saying madly hyperactive) and she tires herself out easily but she seems in great spirits. She will still throw the ball at my feet and run about squeaking her toys. She was back in the vet today and she put on 0.6kg sine fri and I'm so happy about that. The vet looked surprised. She did a scan for free (yes free! I was shocked too!) and said the gall bladder didn't look as swollen and we should ween her off meds that she was on to cut down on bile. i can't help but feel they want her to decline so I'll have to go back and gets meds again. The vet said she cant promise anything and she could last a few weeks or a few months. I keep getting paranoid - last week she advised putting her down, now she says she'll only last a while. She had said before she was in a little pain around pancreas and today she poked and prodded looking at molly for a reaction, which i know they have to do to check if the dog in in pain - but she almost seemed surprised that molly didnt react (She was too busy smelling a tuft of pet hair on the  ground!) But when i look at mols, she seems comfortable and happy. I've decided to just keep monitoring her and see how it goes. I'm so happy to have her home - even if in the long run I only have her for another while.