police dog video - wowsa!!

DPU

The presence of the dog along side a policeman with a firearm should be enough.  What disturbed me about the video is at the sound of gun fire, the dog would go to the source and attack the human.  I can't image teaching a dog to go toward gunfire and be in harms way.  The dog does not know the danger it is in, but the human very well knows.   Whats missing is the choice to be brave.

I can ask my trainer (trains police dogs), but I've never heard of gun fire itself being a command for the dog to go forward and I would not come to that conclusion based on this clip.  Gun fire is used to make sure the dog is not gun-shy.  You're right, a dog that startles at gun fire should never be put through this type of program.  Kenya is doing a gun fire test on Friday and again in mid-July (plus inevitable fireworks on July 4).  As for the dog running toward someone shooting a gun, the handler should know when to release the dog. 

The dog has a choice to be brave.  It's not completely the same as police work, but I have seen dogs crack in ring sport and SchH competition, fail the courage test and turn away from the helper.  A dog doing the work you have seen in the video has already undergone years of testing and training.  I have seen a HUGE man let an 8 week old pup bite a flirt pole and watched the pup hang on, but her own choice, as the man lifted the flirt pole off the ground, yelled at the pup, and swung sticks over her head.  She never even blinked an eye.  At eight weeks old.  These dogs have so much courage, we should be humbled and proud.  My Kenya chooses not to be brave and thus she will never do bite work.  She has no civil drive or defense drive.  She does not "bring" the fight, nor sees any reason to defend herself.  If a dog lacked courage and soundness, it would never be capable of what you see in this video.  You cannot force a dog to work like the dogs in the video are working.  Only a select few can make the cut.  Same as Paws for a Cause and service dog programs. 

The dog does not know the danger, but I doubt if we told him he'd care.  If dogs cared about danger, they'd never get into fights with coyotes, they'd never run into the street where there's a car, they'd never try to leave our yards.... 

I find this fascinating,  we do not train our dogs for protection or guard type work.  But we do test using the ATTS standard, In it there are many  problems the dog is made to face and deal with,  they may shy slightly but not enough to prevent them from stepping up when needed to.  for example the gun shot....  dogs who have never , never been exposed to a gun shot must stand thier ground. flinching is fine... but scampering off tail tucked would fail them.  another level of the test involves "crazy stranger"  a man will hide behind a barrier and shout  crazyily  ...the dog  must alert, then the crazy stranger will come around the barrier and waving his arms shout and wander towards you... the dog to pass this test must insert themsleves between the Nut job and you... they can bark,  aggress whatever   as long as they can be controlled and called off they pass.  The job of crazy stranger is a tough one, at the Ridgeback Rodeo over 25-40 will try  can you think of  anywhere from a petite 65 pound to over an 100 pound dog deciding  YOU are not okay to be around my  Momma???    I have been on the MOmma end and it scared the heck out of me!!

Bonita of Bwana

Bonita, Kenya is doing the ATTS TT in July (hence our gun-shy pre-test on Fri!).  Our SchH trainer (the police dog guy) expects she will pass.  The only problem is I stupidly signed up at a police dog academy, and the tester has already told me he will be holding GSDs against their breed standard, meaning flinching and recovery might be OK for any other breed but the GSD at the very least must hold its grown, no fear, and is supposed to alert bark start getting revved up at the aggressive stranger (can't wait to see what Kenya will do!  Most likely the minimum, just stand there and stare!). 

What is missing in the discussion about the gunfire issue deals with the countries this training (on the video) is occurring.  This is Europe.  Overall, dogs in Europe are better trained and socialized in many situations and locations.  The k9 training is Europe is often far more varied and intense than what occurs in the US.  In some cases the dogs are military dogs trained to deal with terror threats.  In defese of the training and the approach, the dogs do not trigger the same behaviors that a person, especially in uniform would do.  The dogs give a greater element of surprise.  That may be a greater level of safety or risk reduction for the humans involved.  Do I want to see dogs die in the line of duty?  Of course not,  I dont want to see officers die either.  But most off all I want to see the public protected.  Dogs offer a level of work that can not be matched by humans alone.

Whats missing is the choice to be brave.

Xeph

You're giving the dog human emotions.   

No I did not, God did that.  Make no mistake it has nothing to do with the dog's WANT.  The dogs are MADE, molded, trained to behavior like this.  Anytime a dog is out of control it is not a good thing, not a good thing for the public.  In the video one dog was so out of control he was biting the handler and then the handler punched the dog in the nose. The human had protective gear and the dog had no protection gear.  Poor dogs just can't get a break.

No I did not, God did that.  Make no mistake it has nothing to do with the dog's WANT.  The dogs are MADE, molded, trained to behavior like this.

God did not give dogs human emotions.  If in fact God exists (entirely different thread), God gave HUMANS human emotions, and dogs dog emtoions.

These dogs are bred and created to want to engage, true enough, but you cannot force a dog who is genetically weak in this area to bring the fight to the gunman.

Dog bites handler, handler does what's necessary to get dog off IMMEDIATELY.  Do I agree with his correction AFTER the dog was off him?  No.  Do I agree with the action in order to remove the dog from him?  Yes.  The dog bit the handler's HAND, not a protected area of the body.  If you noticed afterward, the dog was up and none the worse for wear.  Resilient, as he needs to be

But hey, if you want a weak nerved dog running away from a gunman protecting you, by all means...

DPU

Make no mistake it has nothing to do with the dog's WANT.  The dogs are MADE, molded, trained to behavior like this. 

You must have never seen a dog go through this type of training...  I do schutzhund with Rafe (although it is different from the police style type of protection training, it is still very similar), and I can say 100% accurately that he ENJOYS it.  And it isn't because he's been made to do it.  In his eyes he's playing a game that he loves.  Yes, they are trained and molded and ladeedah, but all that training and molding is honestly more about teaching them commands so that they know when they can bite and when they need to stop biting.  We don't have to teach dogs to bite...they can already do that just fine.  We do teach them to have better bites (fuller, harder bites) to some extent, but its not like you can force a dog into it.  Well...I suppose it is possible, but that dog will not win and will generally fail trials. 

Personally, mals are too much for me...lol!  I like a dog that will work and love it, but that will also lay down with you on the couch after a long day.  I think mals are great dogs for police and military work, but for a pet/schutzhund dog...eh...nah...     

 You know what my issue with Malinois is?

Not enough hair!  LOL xD!!!!
 

Serious disagreement with two statements Mal's cant be couch potatoes after a long day,,, you just havent met the right mals... And not enough hair,,,, my vaccum and house beg to differ. 

mrv

Serious disagreement with two statements Mal's cant be couch potatoes after a long day,,, you just havent met the right mals... And not enough hair,,,, my vaccum and house beg to differ. 

DPU

Make no mistake it has nothing to do with the dog's WANT.  The dogs are MADE, molded, trained to behavior like this.

Then how do you account for the courage and drive apparent in temperament tests done on 6-8 week old puppies that have zero training? 

I used to think that these things had to be more training and socialization than genetic drive.  I never placed a lot of weight on genetics and inherent soundness of temperament and working drives.  Then I saw the test done on a tiny puppy.... 

Great video.......any idea where this video was filmed? It's not a german speaking country.....

snownose

Great video.......any idea where this video was filmed? It's not a german speaking country.....