High protein diets--only for some dogs?

I have three dogs that are on Orijen. One is an 10ish yr old boxer, another is a 7 yr old boxer, and the third is a 3 legged boxer/pit/beagle mix. The 7 yr old has a high metabolism and runs like the wind, but the other two are not very active dogs. Since switching to Orijen I notice that they are more energetic and their arthritis is much better. I think as long as you are feeding less of the grain-free because it is high calorie, then they won't be putting on weight. They will have more energy to burn, so they may feel like moving around a bit more on their own. But I don't necessarily think it is just for working dogs.

As far as the kidney issue, the only real way is to get regular bloodwork done. Since my dogs are all seniors now for their breed, they go every 6 months for a screening. The really weird thing is that the oldest always had an elevated liver value in the 5 years we've had him, but since the switch to Orijen it's back in the normal range. In fact his bloodwork last time was the best it's ever been. He goes again on Monday, so we'll see if there's any change. I think it costs me $66, which is worth it for the peace of mind and to be able to catch any problems early on.

I believe the kidney "myth" is because most of the research involved high protein diets that were of fairly low quality proteins. If the protein is low quality, the kidneys have to work harder. A lot of the grain-free foods out now claim to be much higher quality protein sources so the body doesn't have as much difficulty breaking it down. The other thing to remember is that high-protein diets should only be fed to healthy dogs, whose bodies are functioning properly to handle the higher protein.

I think the dog's activity level MUST also match the food to be really safe.  Giving a dog a high protein food and then not allowing it to get rid of that excess energy can be like giving them rocket fuel with no where to go. 

I home cook but altho I use more protein now than I have in the past I'm not going to join the ultra high protein feeders.  I don't use grains tho ... mostly veggies plus meat with bone meal, etc. added.

 The high protein phase isn't that old -- there won't be any definitive answers for many years.  I'm not terribly inclined to 'trust' food companies, and I probably feel better controlling it myself.  They may *say* it's a better quality of protein ... but ... *sigh*

 I'm also concerned that there is such a huge problem with anal glands ... which is a natural result of high protein, low bulk diets where there just isn't enough 'bulk' in the diet to properly express the anal glands. 

So bottom line, I think it has to be YOUR decision.  What Jetta does well on.  What YOU can handle.  You have been unbelievably faithful to this dog ... and Jetta has benefitted a great deal!!  I would think the above-posters admonition to be correct -- semi-annual (at the least) blood panels -- not just a small panel either, and not a 'senior' blood panel, but a full blown "Super Chem" (if your vet uses Antech -- otherwise whatever equates to it) AND a full urinalysis -- the vet will have to keep track of the level of microambuminaria in the kidneys as well as the albumin levels and all the kidney-related blood levels.  Not cheap but it's going to tell you better than anything how she's reacting to her food.

I don't really know the answer to your question, scientifically speaking. I think that you should probably find studies that have been done by universities and other researchers and not just go by what regular internet sites say. A lot of time, people who develop websites are just re-stating what they have heard elsewhere. Not that they have done the research themselves. So, consider the source.

That being said - I don't think that all dogs need something like 42% protein like you'd find in Evo. I feed Evo to my super high energy dog because it works for him. Otherwise, he'd be one something that was a bit more reasonable (21%-30% say).

I think that you need to see how your dogs do on whatever food you're feeding and adjust as necessary. I'm also a big believer in blood work as well (especially for older dogs)
 

 I don't know the answer to your question either. The ph of the Origen Adult formula is 5, which is slightly acidic; http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/products/adultanalysis.aspx.  Most dog foods have a target ph of around 6.5. You may want to ask your vet if that could cause urinary tract problems such as stones.

Well, this isn't from any particular research but from what my vet explained to me about high protein and kidneys is that IF the dog already has a kidney problem that the high protein might not be a good idea.  But, it wouldn't cause a kidney problem on it's own. 

Well, this isn't from any particular research but from what my vet explained to me about high protein and kidneys is that IF the dog already has a kidney problem that the high protein might not be a good idea. But, it wouldn't cause a kidney problem on it's own.

 
That's actually the general opinion in the research world (and what is currently being taught in most schools - however, it varies a lot more between generations of current vets) as well as phosphorous being more indicated in renal issues. Protein filtration requires more stress on the kidneys, which shouldn't be a problem in healthy animals. But if the kidneys are already less responsive to stress, inflamed, failing, etc, the increased filtration rate will only exacerbate future problems.

Low quality protein affects the digestive system more than the kidneys. If protein is too large or improperly broken down, it won't be filtered by the glomerulus anyway. The problems come more from circulating and excessively excreted polymers and "junk" that the body can;'t break down, which increases systemic inflammation and stress, which will affect the kidneys. High quality protein actually causes more breakdown and more amino acids being released and more filterable protein. So quality isn't a huge deal with specifically the kidneys - more of a deal with the rest of the body as a whole.

I don't think it's necessarily the protein that needs to match the dogs energy level, but the fat.  I think (for example) high protein and low fat is good for senior dogs, and we all know the majority of senior dogs are not active ;)  However, I think that there is no point in feeding a high protein/high fat food unless you are going to allow your dog to get rid of the excess energy.  JMO though  

However, I think that there is no point in feeding a high protein/high fat food unless you are going to allow your dog to get rid of the excess energy.  JMO though 

A question for you vet and nutritionist types - I hear that dogs fed high protein have "extra energy" and will get hyper or have behavior problems.  But, when I feed my sheep high protein, the extra energy I'm talking about their getting from that, is literally just calories.  We raise protein on ruminants to do this because it's a form of energy that doesn't take up room - it "bypasses" the rumination process. 

When we raise protein and feed the same amount, we are increasing the available energy from that feed and allowing the sheep to maintain or gain "condition" more easily.  If they get too much, they don't run around the field acting stupid, they get fat.

I understand on dogs, that they use protein as their primary energy source.  Thus, if they are getting "extra energy", I'm pretty sure that this doesn't mean ebullience or hyperness, but the way I use energy when talking about feedstuffs - simply "fuel".

So, if a dog's getting more protein than he needs - in absolute terms, not percentage of diet - won't that dog just increase condition (ie, get fat, if he's already in good condition)?

Protein, in my understanding, doesn't have anything to do with brain activity, except in a dog that is lacking in muscle mass due to low protein, suddenly having protein available to build muscle, which in turn helps the dog feel more like moving around (the increase in energy in older pets that many people note on switching to the high protein low fat diets recommended today, I believe).

Just some thoughts for discussion.

I took that line that you quoted as meaning if you are going to feed a food high in protein and fat that the dog should already be a high energy/active dog or else like you said, they will end up putting on too much weight.

When I say that the higher protein has given my dogs extra energy, I simply mean that my 10ish year old is more playful than before. That is the big difference I notice. This could also be because the higher protein has helped his arthritis, so he's not as stiff and feels more like playing. I can say with 100% certainty that the food has helped his arthritis, because I take him for acupuncture for it. Before the switch to high protein he had to go every 4 or 5 weeks (and probably more often than that, but it's too expensive). Now I take him every 8 weeks, and even then he doesn't really need it. I just take him because that's as long as you can go without having to start the regimen over (1x a week for 4 weeks, then space it back out).

I don't notice any real change in activity level, certainly not hyperactive or anything like that. It just helps with mobility for my senior boy and the 3-legged one who falls down a lot. They also haven't put on any weight, in fact they've lost weight and added more lean muscle. Of course, every dog is different, but I've seen such positive improvements from it and my vet is very happy with them as well.

  Kris and Jana; As I mentioned in my other post, the ph of Origen is 5; most foods have a ph of 6.4 to 6.7. Does either of you think this could lead to the urine being acidic, and would that be a health concern?  EVO doesn't list ph on the website, but wouldn't any high protein food be acidic?

 Yep, acidic food = acidic urine, because as a mechanism of keeping blood pH stable with a dietary influx of H+,  the kidneys will kick out more H+. Carnivores tend to have much more acidic urine anyway (normal being 5.5 - 7.0 or therabouts) because of this high meat diets, while herbivores have urine pH more around 8.

In general, too alkaline is worse than too acidic, because there are more types of crystals and bacteria \that like to form/live in alkaline urine. However, on the flip side, calcium oxalate crystals do like to form in acidic urine, and these guys are much harder to dissolve and many times have to be taken out surgically....so it's best to keep it around 6.

Regular meat has a pH of about 6.0. A kibble with a pH of 5 would make me a little nervous, since it might make the urine pH dip below normal. However, every dog is different - you might try the Origin and just keeping track with dipsticks.
 

   Thanks Kris; Last year Jessie's urine was checked for a UTI and the ph was 5. She had a senior blood panel done about a month before and all her values were very good. I asked the vet what would cause her urine to be acidic and he said a high protein diet. I was feeding her a food that was 27% protein and had a ph of 6.4, but I was adding canned food and meat. So, I converted the protein of the food I was adding and the kibble to dry matter basis and used the Pearson Square to calculate the total protein of her diet and it was around 50%. I reduced the amount of meat for a total protein of about 35% and had her urine checked a few months later and it was 6.5. I learned that it only takes a small addition of fresh meat to substantially increase the amount of protein she's getting; for example, ground turkey is about 66% protein on a DMB.

I reduced the amount of meat for a total protein of about 35% and had her urine checked a few months later and it was 6.5.

Don't forget the type of meat you use is going to impact urine ph.  Depending on your source, some meats can be very phosphorous-rich and others less so.  Other minerals, or lack of them, may have impact on urine ph as well.