Use of MEGA-C PLUS ?

NO, no and no

 
In growing animals, especially larger breeds, excess Vitamin C causes increases calcium retention and decreased bone remodeling, which is necessary for proper form in the adult animal. As an animal grow, the bones need to be constantly growing in certain places and breaking down in others in order to accomodate the muscles, organs, hormonal influences, etc. Once the bones have undergone the more extensive remodeling process (i.e. adult age) excess vitamin C isn't as bad and might even have a good effect on cartilage/immune systems...but not in a growing dog.

 Hip dysplasia is genetic. You can delay its progression and *slightly* ameliorate it's effects, but you cannot "prevent it" in unborn puppies by feeding the dam extra Vitamin C....

And this?
 
Feline Leukemia (FeLV), Feline Infectious Peritonitis (FIP) and Feline Immunosuppressive Virus: Cats who test positive for these viruses and display no symptoms for any of these diseases can become negative through the MEGA C PLUS protocol to optimize immune function.

 
He also says that he can cure distemper by injecting Vitamin C? (http://www.belfield.com/pdfs/VitaminC.pdf) 

What an absolute load of hogwash....... I'm actually rather shocked that someone with a DVM is saying this.

So I wonder why my breeder uses this all all her Champion Labs?  I too had not heard of this product before, but Dr. Belfield does work in  conjunction with Natura Pet and most of the formulas are tested at the Institute.

 

May I ask where your information comes from.. ? I want to have this new Pup grow correctly. Won't any excess Vit C. be eliminated in urine or the bowel?

 

I just thought of this I had read about Ester -C

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0039.htm

Most likely mainstream Vet. Medicine Pooh Pooh this Vit. C stuff. But Cosequin , Joint Care, and the other arthritis products all use Vit C in their formulas.   At one time the average Vet would tell you joint supplements were snake oil, but now it's mandatory to use if the dog has knee surgery. And that was told to me by a Ortho Surgeon who did TPLO on my older dog and that surgery requires bone being cut and plates put in the leg.

 I could not feed this Mega-C and be wrong too. Never is easy to make the right decisions.  In this case I have to trust the breeder because all her dogs have healthy hips and knees..

 

1) an example of C interfering with/exacerbating bone-related problems from Cornell:

 Ascorbic acid deficiency and hypertrophic osteodystrophy in the dog: a rebuttal.

Plasma ascorbic acid (PAA) in normal Labrador Retriever dogs less than one year of age averaged 1.22 +/- 0.05 mg/dl (x +/- sem) and was significantly higher than the value of 0.89 +/- 0.03, for Labrador Retrievers two years of age and older. No significant diurnal variation in PAA was observed. Oral or intravenous administration of 0.5 or 1.0 g of ascorbic acid (AA) elevated PAA for less than 8 hours. Injection of ACTH caused a significant decline in PAA for the initial 2 days, with variable results thereafter. Labrador Retriever puppies fed a ration high in protein, energy and calcium developed the typical skeletal diseases of overnutrition, including hypertrophic osteodystrophy (HOD). The addition or oral AA (0.5 g twice daily) had no ameliorating effect on the skeletal lesions. Instead AA supplementation resulted in relatively higher serum calcium values which, presumably by enhanced hypercalcitoninism, decreased bone resorption. Thus, AA treatment of dogs with HOD is contraindicated, as it can only aggravate the osseous lesions of HOD. The decreased PAA reported in dogs with HOD is interpreted to be the result of stress from pain.

 I was also told this my by school's leading orthopedic broad-certified surgeon, if you want to play the name game

Vitamin C *is* indicated in times of stress and inflammation, such as post-surgery.Which is why your surgeon suggested it post-TPLO. What I was referring to was feeding a growing dog excess C. The reason Cosequin, etc are indicated is to reduce inflammation caused by *current* bone problems. That is what the C is for.

 Just because your breeder uses is and her dogs have healthy hips doesn't mean it prevents hip dysplasia, etc. Her dogs should be genetically free of HD and orthopedic problems anyway, so feeding extra C would not have such a deleterious effect as it would in a young, at risk dog. But I don't see why you woudl take the risk, when the only scientific data around (do a pubmed searchy) indicates that C decreases bone remodeling.

 
Most likely mainstream Vet. Medicine Pooh Pooh this Vit. C stuff.

 Bleh, I can't tell you how sick I am of hearing this. As if by definition, if you're in the veterinary world you're some silly old fart who refuses to progress. Again, mainstream vet med does not pooh-pooh Vit C for correct usage - i.e. for inflammatory conditions and healing - not for orthopedic function in a growing dog. The research does not support it.

 Lastly, excess C is eventually eliminated from the body. But the body can still absorb quite a bit of extra before things are saturated. It is almost impossible to "overdose" but it IS possible to have the body absorb more than what it currently requires and needs.

 

 

 I too had not heard of this product before, but Dr. Belfield does work in  conjunction with Natura Pet and most of the formulas are tested at the Institute

Also, 1) he does not do clinical trials or scientific trials, therefore his experiences are based on anecdotal evidence (i.e. dog in the practice gets better, how on earth can he prove it was the C that did it?) and 2) of course the "Institute" is owned by him, and selling his products, and is not going to find anything wrong with them.

The nutritional standards established by the National Research Council (NRC) and the American Feed Control Officials, Inc. (AAFCO) are not sufficient to synthesize and optimize collagen production and maintain optimum health. (ftom the website)

There is absolutely no data supporting this, either. No research, no trials, nothing. It is his opinion. If this were so, every dog in the world would have orthopedic problems.

I could go on and on about the logical and scientific fallacies on this website...I wouldn't trust this guy as far as I could throw  him. He's completely pushing his own product. 

The nutritional standards established by the National Research Council (NRC) and the American Feed Control Officials, Inc. (AAFCO) are not sufficient to synthesize and optimize collagen production and maintain optimum health. (ftom the website)

There is absolutely no data supporting this, either. No research, no trials, nothing. It is his opinion. If this were so, every dog in the world would have orthopedic problems.

I could go on and on about the logical and scientific fallacies on this website...I wouldn't trust this guy as far as I could throw  him. He's completely pushing his own product. 

LOL, I wouldn't trust him either expecially since he doesn't know that Vit C works on collagen crosslinking and not synthesis.

In some cases I truly believe anecdotal evidence if done over years with positive results. I believe this is how medicine worked up until the modern western medicine 150 yrs ago. This is how Chinese Medicine evolved, homeopathy, and use of herbs.

  Milk Thistle is perhaps the best example. It has now been trial tested and proved to work in restoring the liver after being exposed to toxins.

Now if we look at the dog as evolving over time to be able to produce it's own Vit. C in the Liver we see an animal species in that respect out evolved man. If we don't eat citrus we get scurvy, which in man is fatal if not treated.

So I am thinking that now over time and over breeding of purebred dogs a genetic defect has evolved that prevents certain dogs from making enough Vit C in their liver. So I think Dr. Belfied stumbled on to a cure. It happens. Now all dogs may not need extra Vit C but I really think if you cut back to where the bowel(Stool) remains firm it would not hurt. How does one identify those dogs? That's where the new research into genetics will eventually isolate the gene and then breeders will be able to identify breeding stock that doesn't carry that gene.

I thank those who replied and would like to hear more. I can tell you this. Since I started taking Ester C I rarely get a full blown cold. If I feel the start of one and take extra it never develops. So it might in fact be a better idea for dog owners to take Vit C in larger quantities .

My breeder also wants me to feed the Adult Cal. Natural Lamb  21 O/O protein at 4 months old and also quotes a Cornell University study that says a puppy should not be fed no more than 26 o/o protein up until 4 months and drop to 21 o/o thereafter. But I have read that it's not the high protein so much as the Cal to Phos ratio . So I guess it's what study and or who you choose to believe.

fish n dog

In some cases I truly believe anecdotal evidence if done over years with positive results. I believe this is how medicine worked up until the modern western medicine 150 yrs ago. This is how Chinese Medicine evolved, homeopathy, and use of herbs.

Yes which is when we proved that most of what was done in medicine was not useful or helpful. Milk thistle has been shown to be of some benefit, but there are hundreds of other supplements that have been proven not to be. I'm sorry, there is no place for anecdotal evidence in medicine other then to spark a proper study. I also haven't gotten sick since I started drinking latte's everyday since last fall, I wonder if it's the starbucks???????? My co-resident takes about six different supplements and herbs daily and has been sick five times this flu/cold season. Maybe the herbs are causing it????? It's not which study you choose to believe, your breeder misunderstood the study. People who claim they have a miracle drug or supplement that don't study it are shady. If they really think it works they are ethically required to study it so everyone can benefit. IMO if they don't they are too worried they will loose money if it doesn't pan out or don't care. Both are bad. This vet graduated from school in 1954 which is not to long after the discovery of the structure of DNA, medicine/science has changed massively since this time. There is a population of scientists (doctors, researchers, vets, etc.,.....) from this era who just haven't adapted. Harvard actually did a study several years back looking at generational differences in medical practice and found that young doctors are much more likely to practice the standard of care and use the most recent advances (surgeons are a different population, this is internists). IMO this person is one of the ones who didn't adapt, if you read his web page, he seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific process.

ottoluv

Harvard actually did a study several years back looking at generational differences in medical practice and found that young doctors are much more likely to practice the standard of care and use the most recent advances (surgeons are a different population, this is internists). IMO this person is one of the ones who didn't adapt, if you read his web page, he seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific process

 

Interesting.. But much modern medicine today is being pushed by Pharmaceutical Giants that push their product on young doctors only to find out years from now how deadly they were. (and those drugs were trial tested and the results manipulated toward a products safety, eg. Celebrex) No testing can be trusted if it's not entirely independent in its funding.

The biggest crime today for our Pets is the lack of a safe Arthritis medicine that doesn't destroy the dogs liver. I have not heard of any that do not have huge risks.  Natural products like Cosequin that are a food product work best and are the safest. (and contain Vit. C )

fish n dog

ottoluv

Harvard actually did a study several years back looking at generational differences in medical practice and found that young doctors are much more likely to practice the standard of care and use the most recent advances (surgeons are a different population, this is internists). IMO this person is one of the ones who didn't adapt, if you read his web page, he seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific process

 

Interesting.. But much modern medicine today is being pushed by Pharmaceutical Giants that push their product on young doctors only to find out years from now how deadly they were. (and those drugs were trial tested and the results manipulated toward a products safety, eg. Celebrex) No testing can be trusted if it's not entirely independent in its funding.

The biggest crime today for our Pets is the lack of a safe Arthritis medicine that doesn't destroy the dogs liver. I have not heard of any that do not have huge risks.  Natural products like Cosequin that are a food product work best and are the safest. (and contain Vit. C )

You are somewhat correct, no testing is perfect, but doing NO testing at all is dangerous. Don't be tricked into believing that a "natural" product is safe. Vitamin's can be lethal in large doses and some chemotherapy/immunosupressive agents come from plants/fungus. That's just a fallacy that some people use to sell a product, natural doesn't mean safe or side effect free. No medications/supplements are free from side effects.

 

Ditto.

 
A chemical from a plant (i.e. "natural";)c an be just as dangerous (or helpful) as a chemical made in a lab (i.e. "synthetic";). They are both chemicals with physiologic effects, and all need proper testing. 

www.whole-dog-journal.com/.../benefits-of-vitamin-c-to-your-dog

From AKC: Vitamin C for Dogs

Vitamin C is an important antioxidant. It scavenges potentially harmful free radicals in the body and can help reduce inflammation and cognitive aging. Dogs can actually synthesize vitamin C on their own in their livers, but in some cases supplementation may offer health benefits.   www.akc.org/.../vitamins-dogs-need-healthy-lifestyle