Prerequisites to Agility Question - Update on pg 3

Yes, that seems a bit on the excessive side as far as requirements go -- but I'm guessing that they simply got tired of dealing with humans/dogs who were ill prepared to be in the class.  It's far better to bring an "overtrained" dog into agility than to try to start with a dog who doesn't have basic skills like sit, wait, come, etc.  Those need to be rock solid.

As a beginner agility instructor, I know the frustrations of having these untrained dogs in my class.  It's VERY frustrating when you dread tunnel work, simply because you know a dog is going to take off and cause mayhem amongst the other dogs.  It's also frustrating to not be able to work off leash because so many handlers do nothing but get in their dog's way while trying to run on leash.  What is the dog learning when every time they go over a jump they get yanked backwards by a handler that can't keep up with them?

At my club the requirement is currently that the dog must have completed beginner obedience before being allowed into beginner agility.  We're thinking of upping the requirement and making people get evaluated -- but then again, we'd probably lose 80% of our customers who just want to try "this agility thing" for fun.

Seems like alot to me.....where I train you are required to have beginner and 10 weeks of intermediate...

VanMorrison

Last night, at our Obedience II class the Agility instructor came to talk to us since many of us want to get into Agility.  I asked him what the prerequisites were for starting agility classes and he listed:

1. At the minimum, Intermediate Obedience  (This club has 2 puppy levels and 2 beginner levels, then intermediate)
2. Dog must have CGC

He also stated that the next class is not until November!!

I really like this club and they own and handle high performance (and large) agility dogs.  I'm just really dissapointed that they make it so hard to start agility training.  Morrison has completed 4 obedience classes and is going for his CGC soon but then I'll have to do another obedience class and wait until November (during which time I'll probably do more obedience).  Morrison is a year old now and I really wanted to get started.

Any advice?  Does this seem really strict to you?

 I like to start a lot younger with my agility dogs and can see why you are bummed about the wait. That said, I can also see the point of the requirements. My dogs can go into agility class young and with little prior training formal obedience and be ready to learn and work. That can not be said for many dogs, especially dogs owned by novice trainers.

 There is nothing worse than being in an agility class with a dog who won't come when called, is overly distracted or continues to run up to other dogs who are waiting their turn. This is not only annoying but it wastes everyone's time and it can cause or bring out on lead aggression issues with some dogs. Plus it isn't teaching the dog which is out of control anything good - just that it can run off and do as it pleases on the course. Not saying your dog would do this but it happens way too often IME.

 I don't really agree with a class requirement or a certificate/title requirement though either. There are plenty of CGC, Rally or even CD titled dogs who are not ready for the distraction of agility class. It is a stimulating environment - handlers are encouraging their dogs to be excited, dogs are running and off lead and toys are being used to bring out drive to encourage quicker performance. I much prefer to see an evaluation, in an agility class like setting to show the dog can focus on the owner while running and while waiting, will come back off lead when called even with distractions such as a dog running by or toys being thrown and will hold a sit/down wait. As an alternative to requiring a high level of training, instructors could simply enforce dogs running on lead only until the owner has better control (this is what I do in the 4H agility I teach).

 The good news is that you don't have to wait until Nov to start training Morrison in agility. There is sooooo much you can be doing between now and Nov! Foundation work is something that IME is not focused on as much now in agility as it used to be and IMO that is the root of many problems people face. When I first started doing agility in the mid90s, foundation work was done prior to class every week. Homework was given to teach and practice foudnation behaviors without any obstacles at home. I think everyone is in such a rush to get to the "fun stuff" - teaching obstacles and running courses that foundation training is neglected in many cases. Also with classes filling up quick and being only an hour in most cases, it is hard to fit everything in. Obedience training is good but is not the same as specific agility foundation work. So I'd suggest getting some books or DVDs, checking out websites and starting Morrison in agility training now - teaching him the important stuff that doesn't involve obstacles and that may only be skimmed over in class due to time. If you start working on this stuff now, by November when you start obstacle training Morrison will be the star of his class :)

 Stuff to get started:

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=824 (probably one of the most often suggested)

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1363&ParentCat=261 (I haven't checked this out yet but it has gotten good reviews)

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTA274 (also a book)

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1213&ParentCat=223 (EXACTLY what I am talking about - Flatwork Foundation for agility)

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1029&ParentCat=223 (more foundation work)

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1328&ParentCat=223 (Training program for off leash control)

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=177&ParentCat=223 (never too soon to start basic jump training)

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=521&ParentCat=223 (DVD showing all the great things you can train with just one jump)

KarissaKS

At my club the requirement is currently that the dog must have completed beginner obedience before being allowed into beginner agility.  We're thinking of upping the requirement and making people get evaluated -- but then again, we'd probably lose 80% of our customers who just want to try "this agility thing" for fun.

  I think a "pre-agility" class could take care of a lot of these issues in many clubs - a class that focuses on working on attention, off leash control, conditioning and all the groundwork. The class can even include some training obstacles such as wobble boards, cavalettis, ladder work and contact trainers, maybe even introducing tables and tunnels in specific exercises (as a sinlge obstacle taken at different angles for example). If someone isn't willing to bring their dog to pre-agility class, agility training just may not be for them. Another angle to consider is - how much "fun" is it for owners if their dog is repeatedly running off and not listening?

Our club dropped all obedience class requirements after observing that dog after dog that had graduated with honors from intermediate obedience could NOT work off leash without going nuts, and that others had too much heel-training and would not leave the handler's left side. We offer "obedience for agility" and "puppy agility" classes, with lots of work on off-leash obedience and focus on handler as prereqs for beginner agility.

It it a very common belief that OB and Agility should be trained concurrently, the obedience skills needed for agility are much different than regular obedience.  I know many people that trained OB for several levels and then started agility, interestingly  enough many of those dogs are slow.  I absolutey agree with Mudpuppy, that the dogs are often velcro dogs, keep diving behind their handlers to get to the left side and are often unable to work off leash.

And keeping them on leash while learning the equipment is not the best way to train agility, especially if you want speed. 

Having said that, I agree out of control dogs in agility should be avoided at all costs.  But in a level one agility class, it should cover on the flat foundation skills before the dogs ever see one piece of equipment.  By the time the dogs have completed the foundation work, they should be able to work off leash and in complete control.  In my agility classes, we do not work on leash on the obstacles, obstacle work starts with recalls over or through the equipment, I want speed and top speed as soon as possible.

In my opinion, the requirments of where you are training is a bit extreme.  I don't know of one agility training centre that requires a CGC either, that should be your choice.

Teddi started agility at 6 months, she had "basic" obedience skills but minimal attention span. The agility helped her focus and attention. Those prerequisites sounds a bit much to me.

One of the dogs that started when Teddi did came with us from another training group I work with. This is a high energy boxer that the minute you took him off leash he was gone! It has been about a year since that dog started, he is now in the contacts and competition I class. He is capable now of taking the leash off the dog and working a course. Sometimes the dog strays but the handler can get the dog under control with relatively minimal effort. He has come a long way and I thing agility has been a terrific thing for this dog. Agility is a good way for a dog to have "fun" while learning focus. I am sure it is frustrating from and instructor veiwpoint if the dog has issues. Our instructor welcomes the challenge. She likes to see the dog grow. The handler was telling me he can now let his dog off leash at a park to play and know his dog will come when called.  

I have no idea how instructors teach a class filled with delinquent dogs who haven't mastered basic obedience skills.  It's a lovely IDEA to think that the handlers will work on obedience & agility skills concurrently at home, but it's more like a pipe dream in this area.

More often than not, the people in our beginner agility classes are just there because they are looking for something to do with their dog.  Maybe 2% of the people actually enter beginner agility because they want to compete one day.  I can't think of anyone who has started up in the last year who has gone on to compete or progress to competition level classes.

When you have "half-way" handlers like this, you HAVE to have requirements and pre-requisites in order to maintain some sort of order in the class.  We often have split ring classes for the lower level agility classes -- even with dividers up, that is a LOT of dogs to have running around without control.  Even with our beginner obedience pre-requisite, we still have crazy dogs.  I am terrified to think what could happen if we dropped that requirement!  I think requiring the obedience work is more for the benefit of the handler than the dog -- the handler needs to learn how to train!

I don't understand the issues that some of you are mentioning with obedience trained dogs.  I know many people who have dogs who are titled in both obedience and agility that have NO problem switching back and forth.  If you have an obedience dog who can't make the transition to agility then obviously you did something wrong in your obedience work -- or you simply have a dog who wouldn't have liked agility in the first place.  There is nothing sadder than seeing the dogs who are just there because agility is something their owner wants to do.  Why force the issue?  Find something that your dog actually likes.

If I had my way, there would be classes for serious competitive types and classes for the just for fun people.  Unfortunately our class schedule revolves around what brings in the money.  Those of us who are highly competitive have to supplement the group classes with private lessons in order to actually get real work done.

KarissaKS

I have no idea how instructors teach a class filled with delinquent dogs who haven't mastered basic obedience skills.  It's a lovely IDEA to think that the handlers will work on obedience & agility skills concurrently at home, but it's more like a pipe dream in this area.

More often than not, the people in our beginner agility classes are just there because they are looking for something to do with their dog.  Maybe 2% of the people actually enter beginner agility because they want to compete one day.  I can't think of anyone who has started up in the last year who has gone on to compete or progress to competition level classes.

When you have "half-way" handlers like this, you HAVE to have requirements and pre-requisites in order to maintain some sort of order in the class.  We often have split ring classes for the lower level agility classes -- even with dividers up, that is a LOT of dogs to have running around without control.  Even with our beginner obedience pre-requisite, we still have crazy dogs.  I am terrified to think what could happen if we dropped that requirement!  I think requiring the obedience work is more for the benefit of the handler than the dog -- the handler needs to learn how to train!

I don't understand the issues that some of you are mentioning with obedience trained dogs.  I know many people who have dogs who are titled in both obedience and agility that have NO problem switching back and forth.  If you have an obedience dog who can't make the transition to agility then obviously you did something wrong in your obedience work -- or you simply have a dog who wouldn't have liked agility in the first place.  There is nothing sadder than seeing the dogs who are just there because agility is something their owner wants to do.  Why force the issue?  Find something that your dog actually likes.

If I had my way, there would be classes for serious competitive types and classes for the just for fun people.  Unfortunately our class schedule revolves around what brings in the money.  Those of us who are highly competitive have to supplement the group classes with private lessons in order to actually get real work done.

 

Ditto.  If I held a beginner agility class where all we did was foundation work and no obstacles, I wouldn't have anyone in class.  Smallish town and people just want to "try" the obstacles.  Which is why I do this as a hobby and club instead of as a living.  

I would LOVE it if some of the agility places in the area would have a "competition" foundations class.  But the only people that would take it would be those that already know what it takes to have a good agility dog and most of them (us!) are already doing it. 

I think that's the big Catch 22 of agility.  You don't know how important the foundation skills are until you really get into it.  By then it's a catch up game with your current dog and you know how better to train the next so you don't need the class anymore.

My next agility dog will be young (either puppy or under a year) and I will begin from day one working on things I know now that we'll need to be successful.  But I don't need a class for that.  I probably won't enter a class with that dog until they are a year old or more because by then we'll need the distractions of other dogs to proof our work to get ready for competition.  So then that makes a foundation class kind of pointless.  For me at least.

I've considered an Obedience for Agility class, but I just don't think many people would sign up for it.  I could make it a requirement of course.... 

Most of the people that take classes with me have no intentions of competing.  I too live in a area where people just want to 'try agility'.  But they still have to take the foundations class for one reason only.  For the safety of the dog.  I do not want out of control dogs on my agility equipment.

And there is a funny thing about foundation work and taking time to carefully introduce dogs to the equipment, teach the dogs and their handlers body language, sequencing etc right from the beginning.  Those people can go out and run a long sequence with total success over someone that has had  holes in their training.

How much foundation skills a dog and handler needs depends on the level of Obedience that they have when they start.  If someone has a solid stay, recall and focus with their dog, the foundation skills they need are learning to switch sides on the flat, figure 8's etc combined with hind end awareness, targetting and a intro to the equipment.

Of course there are countless dogs that have Titled in OB and Agility, but as I said before everyone that I know that has done it with multiple dogs all say the same thing.......its much easier and more successful to train them concurrently.

I personally do not like 'fun for agility classes' that some places offer, for the simple reason that I see the people that come out of those classes.........if those people change their minds and want to compete they often don't have the skills needed to compete.

Watching them compete is often painful and very sad, especially when they come off of a course in tears.  They often have to retrain, which in the end costs them far more in time and money.  And I just love having to tell these people when they end up coming to me, that we have to *almost* have to start at the beginning of their training to give them the skills that they do need.........

Why is it, that so many people feel that proper foundation skills take weeks or months to learn and that it takes too long before the intro to the equipment?

I don't think dogs should be allowed on equipment in a beginner agility class. Our "obedience for agility" class is wildly popular, and the only "real" equipment they use is an occasional tunnel or table. People and dogs who would be bored to tears working on "heel" and "stay" in a basic obedience class suddenly get all fired up about being able to get their dog to stay on the table and then run a "course" of cones, jump standards, and a tunnel.

mudpuppy

I don't think dogs should be allowed on equipment in a beginner agility class. Our "obedience for agility" class is wildly popular, and the only "real" equipment they use is an occasional tunnel or table. People and dogs who would be bored to tears working on "heel" and "stay" in a basic obedience class suddenly get all fired up about being able to get their dog to stay on the table and then run a "course" of cones, jump standards, and a tunnel.

I agree, people and their dog have fun doing a foundations class.  I also find the dogs are much happier and willing.  Many of the skills taught are games and the dogs and their handlers really get into it.  The dog's stays become rock solid because they want to be sent out and around cones or a jump standard to come back to rewards etc.  The dogs quickly learn that if they want to play they must behave and have control.  By the time we introduce the equipment they are in control and have already learned to do various things at speed. 

 

The agility class I used to take really didn't have a prerequisite. They suggested that the dog should be able to sit, down, stay and come when called (no need for a formal recall) and be controllable off leash, but they didn't require it. The beginning classes taught foundation work on leash, and the agility instructor taught the handlers how to get a sit, a down, a stay, and off leash control - in the context of the agility work. Dogs with a lot of prior obedience (like mine) did have initial difficulty working on the right side of the handler, although the instructor also noted that *I* was the one really having this didfficulty with my dog. The first couple of classes were done without equipment. Cones were used as something to steer our dogs to, through, around in various patterns. It was probably the third class that began introducing equipment ~ contact equipment laid flat on the ground, tunnels straightened and collapsed, a couple of jumps. Each obstacle introduced and practiced individually and on a leash. The class was small and the instructor was able to adjust things as she taught to meet the progress of each team. It wasn't uncommon to have one person still working on the basic stuff that was taught in the first class while someone else was doing more advanced sequencing and course work.

KarissaKS

I don't understand the issues that some of you are mentioning with obedience trained dogs.  I know many people who have dogs who are titled in both obedience and agility that have NO problem switching back and forth.  If you have an obedience dog who can't make the transition to agility then obviously you did something wrong in your obedience work -- or you simply have a dog who wouldn't have liked agility in the first place.  There is nothing sadder than seeing the dogs who are just there because agility is something their owner wants to do.  Why force the issue?  Find something that your dog actually likes.

 ITA and have been doing agility for more twelve years now. A dog's speed and desire to do agility depend way more on the dog's drive then they do on if the dog has had formal obedience training or not. I have seen plenty of dogs with little to no prior training that are slow and clingy in agility. I have also seen and had dogs who were obedience trained that did very well. I don't think it is accurate to imply obedience training ruins dogs for agility.

 As for keeping them on lead being a bad idea - I've been teaching classes for years without an issue caused by putting out of control dogs back on lead. It doesn't seem to cause the fast dogs to become slow - we have some FAST dogs in 4H that were trained on lead until they could be trusted. I worry way more about dogs being allowed off lead too soon and learning that it is ok for them to run wild on the agility course. Generally the intro stuff is mostly done on lead, expect in controlled exercises. As the dogs/owners advance they start "trying" sequences or exercises off lead. The catch is that if they try it and the dog run away or won't listen, the dog is back on lead for the remainder of the class. This sends a message to the dog that it can not get away with not listening if the leash is off. It also prevents the owners from trying "just one more time" and pushing the dog beyond their ability. And pretty much prevents the dogs from being allowed to practice behavior which is very hard to correct once it becomes a habit (running off on course, not taking direction, not coming when called, the zoomies).

   How do you suggest dealing with dogs in class that run off between obstacles or don't come when they are called if they are to be only worked off lead?