Jaia and B'asia Going to Class! I'm so excited!

Oh well...more time to practice what the trainer showed you the first night.  By now, they probably have already mastered the basics, though.  I know this is mostly for socialization, anyway.  I am looking forward to how the class is run...enjoy!

FourIsCompany

The one time I did take them to the dog park together, they were totally independent of each other. Jaia found a Basenji that he just LOVED and played so nicely with the little guy. So I don't think that will be a problem. And I don't actually want them focusing on other dogs. I want them to ignore the other dogs and focus on me (and DH).

Jaia is completely well-socialized. And since I started this thread, it has become clear that it might not be a great way to socialize B'asia. The class is entirely on-leash so there isn't opportunity to get much socialization anyway. But just being in the presence of other dogs is going to help B'asia.

So can I assume you are using a traditional trainer, or just one that doesn't do a social period at the beginning of class unless it's puppy class?  Is B'asia reactive at all on leash?  If she is, then it may not be the best choice to have a totally on leash class for her.   Either way, looking forward to your descriptions of how the dogs react. 

spiritdogs

So can I assume you are using a traditional trainer

Don't know what you mean by traditional trainer. She is what I have seen described here as a positive trainer. There is no social period because not all of the dogs are properly socialized. The on-leash is a rule for the safety of all.  

spiritdogs

Is B'asia reactive at all on leash?

I don't use the term, but if I understand what you mean by that word, I'd say that yes, she is slightly "reactive". She gets excited and jumps and barks at other dogs. Once I calm her down, which doesn't take much, she is fine until a dog approaches or something else in the environment changes, then she goes back into an excited mode. I have talked with the instructor about it and she is committed to giving us extra space or whatever it takes to make B'asia comfortable. We may end up "off to the side" (it's a big place) in a class of our own, but I'm sure Bay will get used to seeing the other dogs and calm down. She has before.

spiritdogs

If she is, then it may not be the best choice to have a totally on leash class for her.

As I have said before, this is the ONLY class available to us. We live in a small town and this is the only club and the only way to get public classes. My dogs don't need the obedience training, it's more of a socialization and fun thing for the whole family to do together. One thing's for sure, if I keep B'asia segregated from other dogs, she'll never learn to be around them.

I'll be reporting here how it's going (if we ever get there, that is...)

We finally made it to class last night and it went pretty well, considering it was their first such experience. Of course, all the dogs there are new to this kind of event, so the first class is more a matter of getting used to the venue than actually learning much. We just worked on heel, sit and reversing direction, all of which Jaia and B'asia know. So, it was more proofing for them on these skills.

B'asia was actually really good. She wanted to be near Jaia more than to be aggressive toward other dogs, which was great. We did operate at the extremities of the class, just to get used to all dogs on leash, but my hope is to move in and integrate soon.

Aww, that's so sweet.  She felt safer being near her big brudder.  You'll have fun as it goes along.  Keep us posted.

Last night we took B'asia alone for some Cautious Canine work. It went really well.

B'asia Training 

Tonight is Jaia night. We'll be going twice a week for a while, so we can take the dogs individually, because they seem to feed off each other's emotions too much. Hopefully, they'll get more used to the venue and be able to go together.

Well, it seems that the first night at class kind of "ruined" the dog park experience for both of the dogs. Neither one of them is comfortable going in there now and that's really sad. My husband and I have decided that since the training isn't necessary (they're already obedience trained) and they don't NEED the experience of the dog park (we have 4 fenced acres where they play every day) that we're going to pull them out of the class.

My concern is the stress that they are both experiencing AND I don't want to build negative experiences with other dogs that might bleed out to other areas in life like the vet and other public places. So far, both of them are fine at these other places. It's only at the dog park that they're uncomfortable and it's getting worse. It might just be the concentration of strange dogs or something. Jaia used to be great there, but since the first class when B'asia was afraid and he went into protective mode, he's not ok with the other dogs at the park. At least when he's on leash.

The good news is that we'll be taking Cara and Mia to finish out the class. Since they've both been before it should be a positive experience for all of us!  

FourIsCompany

My concern is the stress that they are both experiencing AND I don't want to build negative experiences with other dogs that might bleed out to other areas in life like the vet and other public places. So far, both of them are fine at these other places. It's only at the dog park that they're uncomfortable and it's getting worse. It might just be the concentration of strange dogs or something. Jaia used to be great there, but since the first class when B'asia was afraid and he went into protective mode, he's not ok with the other dogs at the park. At least when he's on leash.

 Why would you pull them out of class because they don't enjoy the dog park? GSDs aren't generally real dog park type dogs anyway and IMO socialization and working on lead in class is the best way for most adult dogs to "socialize" with other dogs. I would probably suggest though, taking just one dog at a time, since it sounds as though the dogs are rather dependent on each other out and about. It sounds like more than anything, that is what your issue is with and that can be a serious problem. I have known multiple situations where bonded dogs reacted poorly together in a class but were much improved when going alone (or with another household dog they were less bonded to). I think that would be worth a try before giving up on taking the GSDs to class all together.

If you read the previous posts, you'll see we did take them separately. Let me lay down a timeline so no one else gets confused. 

- Jaia was taken to the dog park since a very young age and is well socialized.

- B'asia comes along and one day, I take them both to the dog park. B'asia is somewhat fearful on leash. I let them both loose and while Jaia is fine and plays nicely with other dogs (as he always has), B'asia picks on one dog and is very ill-mannered. So I leash her up and we leave.

- I take them both back on the first night of class and B'asia is fearful on leash again. Jaia responds with some protective aggression, but is OK. All dogs are on leash and new to the experience. I have hopes that everyone will settle down.

- I talk with some trainers during the week and they suggest I bring the dogs separately. Great idea! Basia's first time alone goes very well! Lots of progress.

- However, the following night, when we take Jaia by himself, he goes back into the aggression even worse! Jaia has actually developed a dog park issue now, where there wasn't one before.

- I take the dogs out in public to see their reaction and they are fine. Even when they see other dogs on leash. There is something about the dog park that is causing them both to be fearful and aggressive.  

Does that answer this question?  

AgileGSD

Why would you pull them out of class because they don't enjoy the dog park?

AgileGSD

I have known multiple situations where bonded dogs reacted poorly together in a class but were much improved when going alone

That was my intention. If I had taken them alone from the beginning, that would probably have worked.

The GSDs are already obedience trained. They don't NEED the class and they certainly don't need to be placed in the position of having negative experiences associated with other dogs. If just one night caused Jaia to have an issue about the dog park, then I'm not crazy about forcing him to keep going back. Especially when there is no real reason for him to be there.

I would love to hear your input on this and other people's too, because I'm actually not sure I'm doing the right thing. I just can't see forcing Jaia to accept the place, especially since I can't always control how other people are with their dogs. This past week, we were leaving on a high note and some lady let her mastiff off leash and it came bounding toward Jaia and he freaked out and we had to fight to get out of there. So much for ending the session on a high note.

FWIW, both of the instructors I'm working with agree with me that pulling them out of class is the right thing, as long as I keep taking them to other public places with dogs (which I'm doing).  

I hope the dogs aren't pulling you out of class, and that it is that you are taking them out of the class for good reasons of your own. (and I know you, and know that you must be)

I've seen dozens of reactive, highly stimmed young GSD come through the AOC's classes over the last 10 years I've been teaching, assisting or involved. The teams that stayed got much better and several went on to earn CD's and beyond. There was one that when you first met this team you thought, no way will they ever be able to be a team.

Well they earned the UDX just last fall. Only took six years. :) Six years that they spent in class at least one night a week, learning together and building a bond of trust that I envy.

The difference in confidence and self control in both of them is amazing. 

RescueSheltie997

I've seen dozens of reactive, highly stimmed young GSD come through the AOC's classes over the last 10 years I've been teaching, assisting or involved. The teams that stayed got much better and several went on to earn CD's and beyond.

Really? See, this is why I'm so torn. If I thought they could work through these issues without too much stress, I would definitely stay with it. It's not that I don't want to do the work, it's that I'm afraid forcing the issue may cause some kind of permanent issues. I'm way out of my element here...

As for your first sentence, I'd have to say that the dogs are pulling me out of class. I can't stand seeing them like that. I have said before that I couldn't deal with an aggressive dog and I think that may be what I'm up against here. Dealing with a dog that's behaving in an aggressive manner.

Ugh! I'm miserable making this decision. Someone tell me what to do! LOL  

Just as an aside, I think it's often useful, instead of categorizing a dog as fearful, aggressive, or ill-mannered, if you just describe the dog's body language.  So, instead of saying the dog is acting fearfully, the description might be that the dog's tail was tucked, his body was crouched, and he was averting his gaze.  We, who sit here behind our keyboards unable to see, would get a more accurate picture of what's really going on. 

If this is the kind of class where the dogs are always on leash, IMO it isn't very helpful anyway.   Bruce Davidson, a famous event rider, used to say that you should be able to ride your entire dressage test with a dog barking at your heels.  I think what he really meant was that if you remain relaxed, and if your horse is properly trained to respond to your aids, the horse will obey and you will not get dumped, despite distractions.  So, the real key here is that each dog be trained to a high level, proofed with distractions, then taken into public to do the same thing all over again.  If you can't get either or both dogs to divert their attention from the environment back to you with a single cue, then you have work to do before you take them anywhere in tandem.  JMHO

Edit:

Thanks to RescueSheltie997, I have rethought my decision and I'm going to take the dogs back and try the class again. I posted on a couple GSD boards asking for help and they ALL supported the idea of continuing the class.

Good!

Learning is stressful. For you, for them. Knowing that it is learning stress, you can both move forward. Movement will help dissipate the stress. Stay with it and make note of your progress after 4 weeks, after 8 weeks.

In our classes we talk about the "5th week plateau" and how supposedly the behaviors are "lost" as they transition from short term to long term memory. I think Diane Bauman or was it the Volhard's theory? I don't remember.

I've seen this some, but not at exactly 5 weeks. However, it passes and then the dog seems to have much better understanding of what it was working on (scent discrimination - signals, stay, or heel... whatever)

 Let us know how its going, okay? 

FourIsCompany

So far, both of them are fine at these other places. It's only at the dog park that they're uncomfortable and it's getting worse. It might just be the concentration of strange dogs or something. Jaia used to be great there, but since the first class when B'asia was afraid and he went into protective mode, he's not ok with the other dogs at the park. At least when he's on leash.

 I think dog parks can create a lot of stress for dogs that have even the slightest fear issue.  It is full of TONS of strange sounds, sights and smells and can be sensory overload.  Zack does great at our obedience class, wanting to play with  a room full of other dogs, but when I take him to the dog park he shivers and cowers in the corner, he is very obviously stressed.  Since I don't NEED to take him to the dog park, I'm thinking of signing up for a playgroup with one of the obedience schools in the area instead.