What do you think of these ingredients?

Ingredients: Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Cooked Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Rice Flour, Ground Barley, Whole Ground Sorghum, Whole Ground Millet, Catfish Meal, Beet Pulp, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Chicken Liver Meal, Oat Meal, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of vitamin E), Dried Whole Carrots, Dried Whole Celery, Whole Ground Flax Seed, Lecithin, l-Lysine, Sea Salt, dl-Methionine, Monosodium Phosphate, Fructooligosaccharides, Potassium Chloride, Dried Whole Beets, Dried Whole Parsley, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, l-Carnatine, Chondrotin Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Beta Carotene, Ferrous Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Manganese Sulfate, Inositol, Niacin Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Copper Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Calcium Pantothenate, Calcium Iodate (source of iodine), Manganous Oxide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite (source of vitamin K activity), Folic Acid.

Crude Protein Min 27%, Crude Fat Min 15%, Crude Fiber Max 3.0%, Moisture Max 10%, Ash Max 5.75%, Calcium Min 0.90%, Phosphorous Min 0.72%, Vitamin E Min 200 IU/kg, l-Carnitine Min 105mg/kg, Omega 6 Fatty Acids Min 2.95%, Omega 3 Fatty Acids Min 0.50%, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) Min 185 mg/kg, Docosahexanoic Acid (DHA) Min 1100 mg/kg, Glucosamine Min 400 mg/kg, Chondrotin Sulfate Min 42 mg/kg, Fructooligosaccharide Min 701 mg/kg.

In my opinion and from what I've read about judging the quality of a pet food , you have to look at the first 10 ingredients and more importantly the ingredients listed BEFORE the first fat source.   Granted  Chicken Meal is listed as the first ingredient. BUT....the rest goes as follows:

#2  Brown Rice  - GRAIN

#3  Potato - CARB

#4  Chicken Fat - FAT SOURCE

 There is only ONE source of meat protein before the listed fat.  By the time you get down past the 4 Grains they probably definitely outweigh the chicken meal on a percentage basis. And WHY does this food need so many grains ???? Barley is a highly allergenic grain, Sorghum is a source of sugar .

 
#5   Dried Egg Product

#6   Barley (GRAIN )

#7  Whole Ground Sorghum ( GRAIN and source of SUGAR )

#8  Whole Ground Millet  ( GRAIN )

#9  Catfish Meal ( Protein source )

#10 Beet Pulp  ( Stool hardener )
 

It's obvious to me that the manufacturer is depending on energy and protein from grain sources  in lieu of meat proteins  Just say for instance that the amount of Chicken meal is 20%.... the rice could be 18%, the Barley 15%, Sorghum 13%, Millet 12% ... that would total  58% grains to 20% meat.. maybe 30 if you added in the catfish meal but highly doubtful. So basically what we have here is a GRAIN BASED food.   Just listing a specific meat meal as the first ingredient doesn't make it a healthy meat-based food. You have to look at the ENTIRE ingredient list. as a whole.  This list is deceiving at best.

 I wouldn't touch it purely for the fact that it contains Menadione and I feel the OFA ratios are quite low... as well as the protein content for being a so-called "performance" food.
 

you can get an estimate of how much chicken meal is in there- 63% protein dry weight. This kibble has  26% protein. To dilute the chicken down to 26%, and to account for protein contributions from the other ingredients, you can estimate it's approximately 1/3 chicken. Which is ok- many "performance dogs" need a significant amount of carbohydrates in the diet to power those jumps and sprints. It's the couch potato dogs who don't need the carbohydrates.

mudpuppy

you can get an estimate of how much chicken meal is in there- 63% protein dry weight. This kibble has  26% protein. To dilute the chicken down to 26%, and to account for protein contributions from the other ingredients, you can estimate it's approximately 1/3 chicken. Which is ok- many "performance dogs" need a significant amount of carbohydrates in the diet to power those jumps and sprints. It's the couch potato dogs who don't need the carbohydrates.

That's my thought exactly. I think that it is just like long distance runners and other athletes. They need a fair amount of carbs for energy. I've tried the high protein, low carb, no grain thing and while Neiko's coat looks good and he is sufficiently energized, he loses weight fast. He has zero fat to burn and I think that he is eating in to muscle mass for energy.

I've had him on it for about a week now (including transition time) and he's shown no ill effects. Lily is on it too but it is giving her gas (hopefully that improves). If they remain healthy and if I can feed less I will keep this food in my rotation.  So far Neiko is getting 2 cups per day - as opposed to 4 cups per day on Canidae and TOTW. I have not been giving him any supplements since the food manufacturer told me not to on this food. So, we'll see. I'll update again in a month or so.

Carbs aren't a "canine paradigm" source of energy, but our fiddling with nature and the demands we put on high performance dogs, sometimes means we have to sidestep Mother Nature.  What I found is that for very hard working/playing dogs, or high metabolism dogs, you'll either be feeding them eight times a day, or you have to feed them a more concentrated source of energy on top of the high quality protein and fat they need for good health. 

What do you consider a concentrated source of energy for a dog?

I know that you have a lot of experience with hard working, high metabo. dogs so I'm interested in whatever you have to say about this. 

Jewlieee

What do you consider a concentrated source of energy for a dog?

I know that you have a lot of experience with hard working, high metabo. dogs so I'm interested in whatever you have to say about this. 

I know it's not sexy, but corn is probably, for most dogs, the most easily digested source of energy, and the energy available from corn (dry matter basis) is something like 80% or something crazy like that.  That is available energy, not as fed.

There's two major things I don't like about corn.  One, most of it is genetically modified like crazy.  I'm really a bit freaked out about that - we are in so much trouble if we find out that was a bad decision, down the road.  Two, the protein in corn is incomplete - and very badly so.  But, since I use it to top off energy, and not to provide amino acids, my dogs are getting sufficient absolute amounts of balanced animal-sourced proteins. 

For dogs that don't need super duper amounts of energy, I like oatmeal and barley a lot (with a little ground millet and rye).  When I had a much smaller farm, I switched these two seasonally - feeding oatmeal in the winter and barley in the summer.  I used both a kibble with the grain profile I needed, and also homemade preparations to top the kibble or just feed alone.

Most of my dogs would still do fine on the small grains mixtures, but I had two (but now just the one) that needed the extra boost from the corn. Cord is the anti-corn-allergic dog - he looks terrible on anything BUT corn - on corn, his coat glows, he fills out, he has plenty of go for the whole day.  I alternate between Eagle Pack and Bil-Jac for him - and since I'm buying it for him, everyone else eats it too - those who aren't on other diet plans, that is (ie, Ben, Gus, Maggie, and Zhi).

When I say my dogs need a lot of energy, remember I'm not talking about a rousing game of fetch or even a flyball game.  This morning alone Cord helped feed both groups of sheep (this involves pushing them into a far corner of the pasture then doing the cutting horse thing to keep them there while I set out feed).  Then he moved the ewes out (200 yards) so I could work Ted.  Then he moved he ewes back in (from the pond, 1/4 mile away) because I decided to work Ted on the whole flock.  Then he helped me catch a ewe that was having trouble yesterday so I could check her, and medicate her again.  Then he set the ewes out to graze again.  Finally, right before lunch, one of my last ewes lambed down in the woods and he helped me move her and the two babies to the nursery pasture.

ok thanks for the response.

 Lily is itching like crazy now. I don't know if its' the food or fleas. I'm thinking that she has an allergy to something. She didn't itch on TOTW.
 

it all just fascinates me - for Bugsy the only thing that keeps weight on is protein.  Yet others report that their dogs lose weight on the high protein formula.  Just shows that their metabolisms and needs are just as diverse as humans.  So the next time someone on here declares such and such food perfect let's all keep in mind that it is only perfect for their dog.

Julie I hope you find something that you can feed Neiko and Lily if not all three!