Raw

Respectfully, I think you made the leap too quickly and without enough research.  The reason I don't feed solely raw is that I don't feel that I've done the proper research to insure that my dogs will get what they need.  For mine, once a week, either chicken or pork hocks, is enough to make them happy.  The other nights, they eat homecooked, and mornings they get an excellent quality kibble, such as Blue or Innova, or Canidae.

The only answer I can give you to raw meaty bones, given my lack of research and experience is this....if the poop is real hard and white, too much bone, not enough meat.  I do know that they should average 5% organ meat per day.  And that pretty well sums up my knowledge of raw feeding.

There are a number of folks here who do feed raw and I'm sure they'll be happy to help guide you.

As for the bones being too big, just cut them smaller.  For example, when I give my dogs pork hocks, one of my boys always gets the smallest pieces.  He doesn't like to work too hard to eat.  Same with the chicken leg quarters.....we cut his pieces MUCH smaller than anyone elses.  Theo isn't terribly food driven and he isn't about to work hard to eat.  And with the pork hocks, the butcher at SaveALot, which is the ONLY place I can consistently find hocks, is happy to cut them smaller for me.  As I understand it, and I could be wrong, bone is a critical part of a raw diet.

Again, I don't know enough to do this full time, so I don't.  I'm told it's a snap once you've done the proper research...I'm just not motivated to do it! 

Thanks. I know bones are a crucial part but all I can get are beef marrow bones and the dogs just can't be bothered to try to eat their way around the bones- prefering to give up.

Maybe I did make the switch too soon but I know too much about the pet food industry to ever trust buying their food again. I believe pork/lamb necks are equivalent to raw meaty bones? I'll see if I can get some. Are ribs the same?

 I'll try to get the bones cut smaller, although the butcher gives us a big leg bone so asking him to cut it like 10 times (I own 2 small dogs) seems slightly awkward. So maybe I'll try necks.

 Also I'm led to believe (according to Lonsdale) that dogs can survive on chicken carcasses just fine although it is better to try to balance it out.

Most areas have a raw group, usually found on Yahoo, that will give you a wealth of information about suppliers.  Marrow bones are recreational.  Even my german shepherds can't eat those.  Beef knuckle are SUPPPOSED to be recreational, but my guys tear those apart pretty quickly.

There are a number of really good and trustworthy pet food companies.  Canidae was totally untouched by the recalls, Blue, only their canned foods, and NOT because of any contamination.  Blue pulled every can because they discovered that their canning partner was adding something that wasn't in the recipe and not on the label.  And I believe that Natura also escaped with just a canned recall.  So there are THREE that I totally trust.  My son demo's for Blue, and he gets all the inside dope, so this is a company I KNOW isn't pulling anything.

I've used pork necks.....but where I live now they don't cut them properly and often I find pieces that are really sharp.  I believe that necks are too much bone, but, again, I don't know that for certain.

I *think* www.rawdogranch.com is the correct addy for a really good resource.  This gal is/was a member of the forum and has raw feed for a number of years.

Nope not because of recall but because of the ingredients. Sorry, I read Tom Lonsdale's book and it made so much sense. I just want to do what's best for my dogs, so why not go with nature?

 Thanks again for your help.

Ingredients in the lower quality foods are pretty bad, agreed.  However, I would not read one man's opinion and jump to something I wasn't prepared to do based on that ONE opinion.

If you (generic you) don't know what you are doing, a raw diet can do a lot of damage.  It does take research to do it properly and not doing it properly can cause more problems than crap ingredients in a kibble.

You have small dogs. I recently discovered premade raw patties. I've been feeding raw for some time (2ish years, I guess). Emma tried Bravo patties for the first time, the other day. I'm thrilled with the convenience. The Bravo patties aren't totally "balanced" but Emma doesn't tolerate foods that are (she has really nasty food allergies). You can find a LOT of raw foods (including BARFworld patties) that are balanced, and make a great transition food. They're pretty affordable, for a small dog.

And we *know* that a dog "surviving" on something doesn't mean it's healthy. I know a 19 year old Dachshund who has eaten Ol Roy her entire life. She is *not* healthy. Chicken carcasses are not a complete diet. 

Sorry. *I* don't work out how much calcium I have per day or protein etc.

I'm not basing this just on his book, I've heard through other owners how great this diet can be, just happens that the only recent book I know of is his book- for prey model diet not BARF. I have read other books but those were BARF so not the same.

I don't understand how this is worse than feeding kibble? I do not know what nutritional balance my dogs are getting, no. Yet in the wild, did dogs add up and ensure that they got everything right? No. They got what they could find.

That website was helpful though, thanks. I'd rather not feed premade raw either as again, I have no idea what's in it and don't want to follow BARF- which is what they are based on, or at least the ones in my area are.

We have managed to muck up the order on chicken, and got 4 boxes now- rather than 4 chickens and the dogs aren't best pleased. Heh. What I am going to do, I have no idea.

They won't just be getting chicken either- we've just bought fish (whole) and have an order for lungs/heart next week. Yes I am new at this but I'm just trying to do what I feel is best. Having a dog affected by tooth disease caused by the kibble he has eaten his whole life probably influenced this. He has one canine tooth left and I can't risk losing that to kibble.

Pawsies

I don't understand how this is worse than feeding kibble?

It can be worse than even low-end kibble, if you get the balance far enough off. I've know lots of folks (I'm exposed to a LOT of dogs through my work and social circles) who've really hurt their dogs, by feeding them unbalanced foods. It is particularly dangerous to puppies. It is not terribly hard to feed a dog a fresh diet, but... there are wrong ways to do it, just like there are wrong ways to feed yourself. It does require some reading and research (which you're doing). IMO, it's probably better to feed a balanced diet til you have a really good idea of what you'll need to feed (ie, knowing what pieces constitute a RMB, and what constitutes organ or muscle, what percentage should be which part, whether to feed veggies, whether to supplement).

A grossly unbalanced diet CAN make even a healthy dog very ill. You can end up seeing things like pancreatitis in a fairly short period of time. Dogs aren't fragile flowers. You can get away with a lot, BUT.... You don't know where your particular dog's tolerance level lies. Well-meaning people do make their dogs sick. That's why vets push commercial diets. Most folks don't have any idea how to feed themselves well, much less their pets. Obviously, you're doing better than the general public. You're doing research, learning what's good and bad. Personally, I did a LOT of research before I went away from commercial food, for good. I had an old dog, at the time, and a sickly dog. Still have the sickly dog.  Both of them improved, very much, after we switched from high end kibble to raw food. I took a lot of time with the transition and research, because I wanted to be SURE I wasn't going to harm them.
 

I understand that and I am trying to fit the requirements on the website above but I guess my point is that if for one day a dog is fed say just raw meat it isn't going to harm them that much.

Take myself for example, I'm vegetarian (weird, eh?) and I have no idea where I get protein from. I'm a fussy eater (so like my dogs) and so I must be getting it from somewhere seeing as I'm still alive. However I have no idea where.

I'm kind of scared now because I don't know if I made the right decision, it seemed so sensible and the best thing to do but if one of my dogs fell ill, I have no idea whether I could forgive myself. I just hear so many positive things about it that I did jump on the bandwagon too soon and I regret that but to see my dog struggling to eat kibble, knowing it could be making him worse, I couldn't bear that either.

I'm vegan, LOL. I have no protein problems. I eat lots of nuts and beans. My fingernails and hair are super strong.

I'm glad that you see the need for balance. Sometimes, people get so gung-ho about raw that they think they *can't* hurt their dogs by feeding them raw. IF you know what they need, and have done the research, and you do figure it all out at least a couple of times on a spreadsheet, you can do well just by eyeballing. I did figure out all the nutrients, a few times. Now? I eyeball things, a lot. My only dog is fully grown, and her bloodwork is perfect. She's got great muscle tone, tons of energy and stamina, and does very well.

It *is* a good thing to feed them a diet of fresh foods, but you've just gotta teach them to eat what you put down, LOL. Tough love works wonders. If my dog doesn't eat what I put down for her, I pick it up and she doesn't get anything til her next meal. Now, she has some tummy and allergy issues, so she'll refuse a food that made her sick, sometimes. That is a little different than general pickiness. I offer her a different food at the next meal. If she's refusing a food for the sake of refusing it, she gets the same food offered til she eats it (usually at the second offering, LOL).  

 You mentioned that dogs in the wild don't get balanced diets.  I beg to differ.  A dog or wolf rather, in the wild will scavenge until they find the right foods.  They get the bulk of what they need from the animals they kill and then they get cravings for whatever else their bodies need.  All wild animals are like that.  If they need more fiber they eat grasses, if they need more calcium they will even eat rock infused with chalk.  Domestic dogs don't have the chance to do that usually, save maybe the grass. 

I am all in favour of raw feeding, and even more in favour of prey model feeding.  I wish I could do the latter, but currently I have very little access to whole animals.  I do as much variety as I can with raw, and I research more and more daily.  I read everything I can get my hands on.  Raw Dog Ranch is a good site.   This is another good site, but its BARF based.  Its useful anyway, unless you can feed all whole animals and eliminate the cuts.

You could try a premix to which you add your own meat (and sometimes veggies) and it's very easy.  I use sojos (they have a grain base and a no-grain base). There is also Honest Kitchen Preference and Urban Wolf, etc.  This is what I'm feeding now, couldn't be easier and dogs are much healthier.  I've fed it off and on for years.  Takes the guess work out of feeding the critters.

I also use the strombeck book recipies (google strombeck book) he advocates cooked.  Also google for the pitcairn book which has recipes as well.  Look at Monica Segal's website and kymythy shultz's ultimate diet. Those will definitely get you started.  Good Luck!

Having a dog affected by tooth disease caused by the kibble he has eaten his whole life

There are many things that cause tooth disease....sorry, I just have an issue with ascribing everything a single cause without proof.

I also second all of the suggested links above. Make sure you get your meat from a trusted source. Dogs can resist most common bacteria on meat due to short GI transit time, but if you pick up a bad piece from the supermarket rather than a butcher, you may be in fro trouble

Like huskymom said, wild canids got a balanced diet for the most part because of the variety and the fact that they could scavenge for whatever else they needed. Unless properly planned, a raw diet for a dog may not approximate that balance, because they have less of a chance to "pick and choose" depending on what their body needs. Don't make it *too* complicated (most of it *is* common sense) but there are a few things you need to make sure of, Ca/P ratios, adding the correct amt of organ meats, etc..

As a last note...not all kibble is created equal. There are a large number of superior foods out there. Every dog is different. Some dogs even do better on kibble because raw is just too much for their system. So, it's not totally cut and dry (i.e. you can't say raw is always better). I personally feed my dog kibble (an ever changing rotation, but mostly NB, Innova, Canidae, SG) and give her a few RMBs weekly, and it works out fine.

My dogs get kibble every single morning.  But, they get GREAT quality kibble...Blue Buffalo, Canidae and Innova are in my rotation right now, and they get homecooked or raw for dinner, but raw is typically only once or twice a week.  Thor will be six in September.  His teeth are STILL pearly white and gunk free.

I do think some kibbles can contribute to dental problems, but for folks that don't want to give rmb's, then they need to brush and/or have the vet do a dental.  I have six german shepherds and I'm sure vets drool thinking about the $$ there are going to get for dentals.  They always seem a bit shocked and a little disappointed when they spy those pearly whites!