Homecooking question

Edie

Just a quick question on bonemeal.I get a big bag of 'bone shavings' from my butcher every now and then,the dogs love it. He gets it off the bandsaw from the shavings of marrow bones etc when he cuts them.Is this bone meal?

Bone meal is super processed (finely ground, super cooked, etc.) bone. You've got unprocessed bone. Better, IMO, but different nutrient profile.

And guys..bone meal's phosphorus can be a GOOD thing sometimes. Lots of homemade diets are actually deficient in phosphorus, based on the NRC's numbers. I have a hard time formulating a diet with enough phosphorus for Cherokee, without too much of other nutrients.

 The problem with bone meal for me is that it's animal sourced and I have no way to know for sure where it comes from or how it was processed.  So, I'm back to the same problem I have with the commercial foods.

That's why I'm getting professional help at this point.  The closer you can stay to a "natural" (ie, biologically appropriate) diet, the more leeway I have.  The more variables and restrictions I deal with, the more complex it gets.

 

Emma eats SO MUCH food that she gets plenty plenty of phosphorus (and everything else, basically). Teenie needs reduced minerals, because of her propensity for growing rock gardens in her bladder. I guess I should have said that... Both dogs are prone to UTIs, which makes me worry about their kidney function. Reduced phosphorus reduces the load on their itty kidneys.

And I agree that fresh bone shavings are MUCH better than bonemeal, for the reasons already stated. If Emma Nems could eat fresh bones, I'd feed her whole prey with some veggie mush. As she is, I have to supplement the calcium. I'm very, very tempted to buy a commercial meat grinder and just grind stuff very finely for her. It'd be cheaper, and healthier. 

Well, the Better Food for Dogs book uses bone meal.  I have used the Solid Gold bonemeal in the past.  It said it was bovine--does that mean cow only???

Thanks!!

She's doing so much better already even unbalanced.  I'm going to go with the recipes from the book and figure the vitamins/minerals from the chart in the book. 

Does anyone think this isn't a good idea??

jennie_c_d

Emma eats SO MUCH food that she gets plenty plenty of phosphorus (and everything else, basically).

Yeah, that makes sense. Cherokee doesn't have a terribly fast metabolism, she starts gaining weight around 1000-1100 calories per day (which for a 65 pound dog, seems pretty low), so the calories she gets have to be pretty darn nutrient-dense.

Lori..I think your plan is perfectly fine. People do two-ingredient elimination diets for 3 months. I think a reasonably balanced diet (or, I should say, not ridiculously unbalanced) is fine for 6 months or so. Basically add calcium, feed more than two foods, and you'll be good to go. Just not for years and years.

willowchow

She's doing so much better already even unbalanced.  I'm going to go with the recipes from the book and figure the vitamins/minerals from the chart in the book. 

chelsea_b

Lori..I think your plan is perfectly fine.

I'm glad she's doing better.   Since she's under stress has IBD homecooked is definitely the way to go for you.   Jennie is right - you don't need to add the vitamins and minerals in right off the bat - just add them in slowly over time and see how she does.   Start with the calcium.  A few months of an unbalanced diet shouldn't affect her especially when the alternative is the possibility of another IBD flareup.  

Thanks!  That's the plan then.  I'll finish what I made for this week and next.  Then I'll use the book to make it more balanced, doesn't seem all that difficult.  And, I guess I'll end up adding bone meal from Solid Gold too as all the recipes in my book call for bone meal. 

I'll try to keep her on this for the rest of the winter and then slowly for spring phase the kibble/homecooked combo back in and see if it works.  Or who knows, maybe I'll just keep cooking. 

Thanks again!!!

 Hi Lori:

 I had Mordonna work up a diet for Dusty, but I'm not sure how it's going (as you know) , anyhow, she is good.  I never had Monica Segal work on one for him, because at the time she was backed up quite a few weeks.   The recipe includes, beef, sweet potatoes, broccoli, kale, spinach, pumpkin, and turnip.  Various oils and supplements.  We still have loose smelly stools, and he has awful breath.  never had that before.

The Calcium she rcommended NOW.

There's also a lady I was put in touch with from the Volhard Group who wants me to get my vet to draw blood, I send it and it goes to Dr. Dodds  in California,  same lab as the vet uses but cheaper if I send it myself. Then Dr. Dodds and the nutritionist work up a diet for him, I can give you the number and more info. on that if your interested.  She sent me all the paperwork, I was going to wait till after Christmas to do it.

 There's a food by Dog Lovers Gold that's new out, I ordered a bag for my other 2 dogs, supposed to be very natural and different from other foods  Hard to find, any thoughts on it? anyone

Hope Willow's better.
 

oh boy ... no, that's not bone meal.  Bone meal is a powder (and it HAS to be human quality -- not garden bone meal -- that is POISON).

Bone fragments would scare the tar out of me because they wouldn't chew them.  I'd be terrified of an obstruction.

I do not use white potatoes. I use sweet potatoes. I use Calcium Citrate also. I cook a huge variety of veggies, some fruit, only one grain, oatmeal. For protein, I cook lamb, steak, lean hamburger, and salmon.

willowchow

Thanks!  That's the plan then.  I'll finish what I made for this week and next.  Then I'll use the book to make it more balanced, doesn't seem all that difficult.  And, I guess I'll end up adding bone meal from Solid Gold too as all the recipes in my book call for bone meal. 

You can substitute the calcium citrate - shouldn't be a problem.

Also -- when you hear to use a 'variety' -- that honestly means VEGGIE variety, more than meat.   I have cooked stuff for the dogs I **never** cooked in my life.  Kale?  Shoot, I didn't even know what it was!!  Okra?  I LOVE it -- when it's rolled in corn meal and fried ... but NOPE not for the dogs.  I just take plain okra and add it to the rest of the veggies I'm cooking and man they LOVE it (slime and all!!).

Not to get too 'deep' -- but whether a veggie is orange, white or green -- that's a first level difference of what vitamins/minerals/anti-oxidants, etc. are in it.

However -- beyond that -- whether a vegetable is above or below ground, grows on a vine, or is a 'fruit' of the plant, has leaves or skin ... all these things additionally "vary" what's in it.

If I could steer you to one thing in particular, it would be to find a list (they're easy to find online) of the calcium/phosphorous ratios in various veggies.  So you see things like butternut squash (sucky cal/phos ratio) vs. acorn squash are different.

BUT you don't elminate butternut just because it's got a poor ratio.  Instead, you add some the week you use kale (which has a superior cal/phos ratio).  Why?  Because even butternut has things going for it!! 

So if a recipe calls for spinach, but you have a dog that is arthritic (and oxalic acid makes arthritis worse) sooooo you substitute turnip greens for spinach.  OR ... mustard greens are what's on special this week ... so you go home and look at the chart to find out what might balance with that.

But where you might ask questions -- since Willow is limited on the meats she can eat -- find out what those things she can *not* eat would normally give her ... and then find a veggie or alternative source could give you those things. 

Did that make sense?  I hope!

calliecritturs

So you see things like butternut squash (sucky cal/phos ratio)

Actually...according to nutritiondata.com, butternut squash has a ratio of 1.45:1. Pretty darn good. And personally, I don't think veggies contribute enough calcium or phosphorus to worry about it when adding calcium, or worry about their ratios. 100 grams of butternut squash only has 48 mg calcium and 33 mg phosphorus.

Unfortunately, she can tolerate mashed broccoli and that's about it.  She could probably do sweet potato or a squash too but I'm positive she will not be able to tolerate a huge veggie variety.  We've tried veggies in all kinds of forms and she cannot hold them down. 

The other thing is I was under the impression they really didn't need veggies and fruit(she would never eat fruit anyway)???

I'm just going to do the best I can with some simple recipes and in a few months add some regular kibble back in if she can handle it for more than a few weeks.

I don't know, it's very frustrating and worrisome--she can't eat things like other dogs can withuot getting sick.  And, if she's not sick right away it's the next day or over the next couple of days.  Veggie, fruit, organ meat, all out for her. 

As long as its short term (a couple / few months) don't worry about the variety.   If you do want to keep homecooking I would really suggest having Monica Segal do a diet for Willow.   Monica has alot of experience with food intolerances (her own dog was limited to chicken and acorn squash).   Since Willow's problems seem to relate to the recent move I think in a few months you'll be able to start adding kibble back in.  You can still do 1/3rd homecooked (supplementing calcium only) without throwing off the rest of the mineral balances in the kibble so longer term that may be the way you go.

Callie - loved the stuff you wrote about variety.   My veggie mush always includes something green, something yellow, something orange, something below ground and something above ground.   I also give Prancer blueberries during the week to cover "something blue" LOL

willowchow

The other thing is I was under the impression they really didn't need veggies and fruit(she would never eat fruit anyway)???

Yeah, I really don't think they "need" fruits and vegetables----mine won't readily eat them, either .  No worries---As you know my IBD guy eats very little fruits/veggies and no grains---he can eat broccoli, sweet potato and butternut squash, carrots or peas when I home cook---but I use soooooo little veggie matter when I cook, and I only use one veggie source in a recipe (mind you, when I cook, it's usually during a "flare up";) otherwise he does great on a raw diet--believe it not, he does best on the NV raw---most possibly because it's meat to veggie ratio is 95/5.  He really does best on a mostly meat diet.  He actually does best on beef.

willowchow

I don't know, it's very frustrating and worrisome--she can't eat things like other dogs can withuot getting sick.  And, if she's not sick right away it's the next day or over the next couple of days.  Veggie, fruit, organ meat, all out for her. 

We've been here before as well.  At the start of our journey, he ate only NV canned venison (also a 95/5 meat veg ratio) for nearly 6 months before we started introducing new protein sources. (At the time, I wasn't quite ready to jump into homecooking--thank goodness, this worked for us).  I think that keeping your recipe simple and letting her gut rest would be a good thing.

Have you looked at adding the supplement "l-glutamine" to Willow's regimen?  It's an amino acid supplement that will actually heal the lining of the G-I tract.  It does take a few months of steady use to rebuild and repair the mucosal lining, but it helped us tremendously---I think this is why my boy can now tolerate so many more foods than he did previously.  My vet recommended this and I'm glad she did.  There is a nice article about this supplement on the B-Naturals newsletter directory if you are interested in reading more.