Timberwolf Feeders

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    You guys seriously have too much time on your hands.

    How many "oh my god, Timberwolf is killing my dog from allergic reactions and bad ingredients" threads popped up before one person happened to notice a discrepancy in the labeling?  If you loved your precious pups so much, why weren't you all more actively aware; weren't the ingredient listings on the web-site ALWAYS up to date, according to TWO?

    Seriously guys, get a life.

    The food was fine for the past 6 months until you read the bags?  Now all of a sudden the same ingredients are making your dogs sick?  Please.. you simply have too much time on your hands and you're all worse than a sewing circle.

    And in case none of you can read, the explanation about 90% of the ingredients makes sense.  it was always "dried potato product" or "dried egg product," but AAFCO didn't have real definitions for them at the time, and when the bags were made, apparently, "potato" and "egg" were acceptable terms.  Same goes with Lamb or Lamb Meal.. turns out it WASN'T MEAL, and was Lamb.. sounds like you thought you were buying the meal and got full lamb instead -- and you're complaining?

    Seems like you all just want something to complain about and this is the item of the week.  Grow up, already.  You could be spending this energy fighting pollution, political corruption or something else important, but instead you all hang out on your computers 24/7 and whine about the naming convention of ingredients on the back of a bag of food.

     

    ROFL. 

    Well considering my career revolves around canine nutrition, I don't feel that I have too much time on my hands.  In order to "get a life" in these terms, I suppose I would need a career change.  Nice try buddy Wink 

    My guess is either:

    1.) You are feeling guilty about feeding TWO and are taking your anger out on us because we would be suggesting that you are "harming your dog" by feeding it (which we are not).

    or

    2.) You are a rep. from TWO.

    Either way, you cannot blame us for being outraged at their business practices...that doesn't take someone with "too much time on their hands" to figure out.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    Most people never claimed that the discrepancies were "killing dogs" or "causing problems" - most people are just unhappy about being lied to. I'm one of those.

    There are a few people - and if you search the archives you can find discussions about it from as much as a year ago - whose dogs "inexplicably" had very bad reactions to some of the TWO formulas. These people didn't make a big fuss about it, assuming something like, "Well, guess my dog's just weird, I thought he was just allergic to chicken but here he goes having issues with Ocean Blue, too, go figure!" These people didn't "suddenly" start having problems, it's just that they suddenly realized why they had been having problems with it before.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Cita has a good point too; I remember people who had dogs that had reactions to Ocean Blue and they didn't "blame" TWO, they thought it was just the use of a lot of different ingredients (I remember this issue w/ jenniecd a long while ago).  

    You also said that the company had "good explanations" for the ingredient changes.  That is not true at all.  There is (and always has been) an AAFCO definition for "potatoes" and "eggs."  There is also a VERY clear definition between a meat and a meat meal (lamb vs. lamb meal).   If lamb meal is listed first (which means it does not contain water) it contributes a high value of protein to the food.  If "lamb" is used (which means it contains about 78% water) it means it is likely only listed first because of its weight...which means it does not make up most of the food.  So you are wrong about that....

    Go to www.dogfoodproject.com and look at the front page.  Sabine does a good job of explaining it there.... 

    • Gold Top Dog

     That's exactly what happened, here. I didn't see anything I thought the dogs would have an issue with, and I had a free bag, so I tried a little. I was disappointed (because it looked SO GOOD) and gave the bag away. My friend's dogs did GREAT on the food, and really enjoyed it.

     

    And, yeah, I do "boycott" a lot of things. I don't like Target's return policy, so I won't shop there, any more. They quit letting me refill my sodas at their snack bar, and I won't buy anything there, either. I don't buy ANY dog food, since the recalls, because nobody knows what's in their food. I don't eat fast food, because fast food is one  of the worst things you can do for your body or the environment. You shouldn't spend your hard-earned money on things you don't believe in, dog food included! 

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    This does not surprise me in the least.  Long story.  Won't be tempted to use TO again. Confused
    • Gold Top Dog

    Disparaging the people who care the most about their dogs (ie, the types who will spend $3/pound on dog food), is not good for business.  Just a general comment, not neccessarily aimed at anyone in particular, though of course if the shoe fits . . .

    A while ago I was given a free bag of food (ocean blue) during that online ordering fiasco.  That was nice and very appropriate.  Unfortunately, after using the bag, Ben had a serious reaction, his first in over a year.  I was never sure what caused it, but I was afraid to try the TWO again (especially at the price!).

    Again, I'm now convinced that the only way to go for Ben is away from commercial foods altogether.

     

    • Gold Top Dog
    My dog had troubles with Ocean Blue also (runny poops whenever he ate it). It was especially weird since he almost never has problems with any foods. I thought he just maybe didn't do well with grain-free foods. But that's not true because he's on EVO Red Meat now and doing very well.
    • Gold Top Dog

    This company has issues going back years. What all commercial feeders need to do is look at the big picture. There are not many places to produce a dog food. TWO does not own a plant. They have a concept. Not a bad one but a flawed one. They are at the mercy of the company chosen to make their foods. This is one company that gets by on marketing and not on quality. (quality being consistent in the product they produce. )

      If you want to try and list the Pet Food Companies  that own their own plant and have control of the operation you will find the number to be small. Not all companies that outsource make a bad product. And the China recalls brought light on the DARK SIDE of the Pet Food Business.

    TWO reminds me of a episode of the Sopranos ...... small operation out of Miami ...  If you were a fan of the Sopranos you might get my drift on the "recycling industry"

    • Gold Top Dog

    The letter from the TWO rep was posted on one of my golden retriever forums, and it was followed by the following.  The entire thing had been posted on a different forum, copied and pasted on the GR forum.  The poster there did not add who wrote this part of the post, but it does hold some interesting thoughts.

     *****************************************************************************************************

    I'd like to discuss some of Mr. Carey's statements and present my opinion and point of view:

    Ingredient changes

    It's difficult for me to believe that "nothing but" changes in the names of certain ingredients happened. For the record, here's a comparison of ingredient lists, the left column taken from my product database and the right column today (12/08/07) from the Timberwolf website.

    Some of the time stamps show a time frame of over two years, but this is simply the case because at the time I last compared ingredients there were no changes, so no editing of those listings was necessary. (Also see here.)

    Please note that even the number of individual ingredients differs between products, so the claim that no changes were made is not correct. The ingredient list in the right column is what Timberwolf claims you have been feeding all along, even if the ingredients to the left were printed on the bag.

    It's hard to miss that in some cases ingredients present in the old formulas are missing, while the new ones show items that were not present at all previously. Just as an example, what happened to the much-touted unrefined walnut oil? When did tomato pomace enter the picture? How come ingredients that used to be higher up on the list are now in an entirely different place further down? This isn't possible if all the company did was "updating correct definitions".


    Misdeclaration of food ingredients

    Intentional or not, as per Mr. Carey's admission ingredients of Timberwolf Organics foods have been misrepresented for "a few years". I can't fathom how a company can "forget" the simple step of reviewing and comparing ingredient labels, especially when switching manufacturers for packaging materials.

    Mislabeled bags is one thing, but being careless enough to provide the same incorrect information to customers on the company website, where it is no effort to update it at all, is entirely different.

    I also recall amaranth was removed from Timberwolf Organics foods some time in 2006. Timberwolf Organics customer service representative Carol Cameron posted on OurDogsOnline.com on 10/13/06 that "We just sent off an order with redesigned bags today." By my calculations, that was roughly 14 months ago.


    Food ingredients and allergies

    While it is correct as a general rule that antigens associated with allergies are present in the protein portion of a food ingredient and fats are generally well tolerated, reality is that it's not just about "allergies". Some dogs are sensitive to any kind of chicken/poultry components and can't tolerate them in their diet. I'm not making this statement as a layperson, but as someone who has provided nutritional consulting for several years, and most of my clients ask for help due to allergies and sensitivities.

    The fact that undeclared chicken fat has been present in Timberwolf foods could certainly explain why some dogs I know did not do well on some TWO formulations when technically they should have worked for them.


    Packaging and "grace periods"

    As for the "new ingredients in old bag" thing, which is brought up as a lame defense time and again: many food companies claim that AAFCO gives a "grace period" so that they can use up their old packaging (it's expensive), but this is not the case. The truth is that the ingredient lists must reflect what's actually in the container. End of story. If someone tries to convince you of this, ask them for the page number of the AAFCO publication where this "grace period" is outlined. It doesn't exist.


    Those of my readers who have known me for some time and are familiar with my research know that I tend to give the benefit of the doubt where something went wrong once and a company works hard to improve things, but there have been so many different issues with this brand of dog food in the past where I couldn't help but doubt the sincerity of responses from customer service representatives and the business practices of the company that I have to point out that you can only hold onto a customer base for so long. Eventually people will become aware of all the little details, no matter how hard someone tries to sweep them under the carpet.

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     How many of you rmember during all those recalls, TWO would not tell where it's food was made because it didn't want it's formula "stollen".  Appears to me now that they may have been scared their true ingredient list would come out.  As i said NO DOG FOOD COMPANY CAN BE TOTALLY TRUSTED as to their ingredients (oops,  we did actually add X to our food),as to where their ingrddients came from--some said all ingredients were home grown--till they had to remove the food from the market for using stuff from other countires.  Spome said they made their own food--til it was recalled because it was made in contamited plants that makes different brands. 
    • Gold Top Dog

    That was from thedogfoodproject.com  

    • Gold Top Dog

    The interesting thing about the bags and what the label states is who is going to "KNOW" .....  I don't think TWO is the only company guilty of this...  Look what happened to Blue Buffalo .. they had their contract manufacturer add an ingredient that was not suppose be in it. And it was a RECALL ingredient.. (RICE PROTEIN?)

    If you want to buy kibble and TRUST what's in it you may have to research the companies ability to put into the formula what they state is in it.

    I personally think there are only two manufactures I would trust.

    Eagle Pack (and the feeds they make for other companies.  Why ? EU certified. )

    Natura  ( because I have heard and seen accounts of their facility and their reaction of their Co-owner during the re-calls )

    TWO once sent me a Joint care product some five years ago that was mis-labeled and that was the same excuse I got... We had to use up the old labels..   Well I stopped dealing with them then.

    And even if the LAW says your must use new bags and labels there is no inforcement of these rules. The FDA, (NO) the Justice Dept.?,(no)

    A Law suit ? Class action ? The Lawyer will make out ..you will get pennies.   The Pet Food Companies involved in these practices know the only way they will get caught is sick dogs... Most times the average dog can take a lot. Heck the early domestic dog lived off human dump sites.

    Best way to deal with TWO is word of mouth . Tell your store why you won't buy it . And trust your gut.. Not HYPE !