Timberwolf Feeders

Labrador Dave

It's my understanding from the call that they have 6 months to reflect any ingredient changes/reformulations on the bags from the actual change.

That is NOT true. I questioned this a few months ago... Here's what I found out:

From Greg Kean, Director of Product Development & Quality Assurance at Old Mother Hubbard, Inc. (Wellness foods)

The entire industry seems to subscribe to some "6 month" rule by AAFCO or the FDA. The truth is that there is no such rule that allows for a grace period. I once asked Dave Dzanis (former head of the FDA/CVM) about this rule. He confirmed that there is no grace period. Interestingly though, some state regulators will give a grace period on old packaging for changing marketing claims they deem objectionable. That is the only time I have heard of a grace period.

and from John Marsman at Eagle Pack:

For a while AAFCO sort of looked the other way about allowing makers to use up bags. At the AAFCO meeting 3-4 years ago they made a specific statement that they would no longer permit this.

Hmm...I didn't know they were changing their ingredients?  I don't feed it but I'm curious as to why they felt the need to... 

 Have they posted the new ingredients yet?  Anyone have an "old" vs. "new" list?  I looked on there and I think one or two looked different but I couldn't tell.
 

Do you know what the changes are/were? Here's what's currently listed for the Wild 'n Natural on their website (the only formula of theirs I've fed):

Ingredients: Chicken Meal, Chicken, Chicken Fat, Dried Potato Product, Salmon Meal, Natural Flavors, Salmon Oil, Dried Egg Product, Dried Kelp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Dried Tomato Pomace, DL-Methionine, Dried Whey Product, Casein, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Lecithin, Taurine, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium longum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Choline Chloride, Iron Amino Acid Complex Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Cobalt Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Citric Acid, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Rosemary Extract. 

Their prices also went up not that long ago. Maybe it's related to the ingredients change? 

I recently switched to Innova for totally unrelated reasons (needed new food ASAP, no distributors in my county). Still trying to decide whether or not to switch back to TWO eventually. 

Wild & Natural: Chicken Meal, Fresh Chicken, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract), Low Ash Salmon Meal, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract) Eggs, Dried Chicken Liver, Dried Whole Milk, Dried Whey Extract, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Casein, DL - Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Lecithin, Taurine, Lysine, Carnitine, Choline Chloride, Creatine, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Bifidobacterium Thermophilum Fermentation, Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product, Enterbacter Faecium Fermentaion Product, Bacillus Subtillus Fermentation Product, Blueberries, Cranberries, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Thiamine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract

New: White Fish Meal, Salmon, Dried Potato Product, Chicken Fat, Salmon Oil, Natural Flavors, Dried Apples, Dried Blueberries, Dried Cranberries, Dried Figs, Ground Thyme, Ground Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon, Ground Fenugreek, Dried Garlic, Ground Sunflower Seeds, Ground Sesame Seeds, Dried Kelp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Whey Product, Casein, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Lecithin, Taurine, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium longum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Choline Chloride, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Cobalt Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Citric Acid, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Rosemary Extract

Old: Low Ash White Fish Meal, Salmon, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Potassium Chloride, Amaranth, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Blueberries, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Taurine, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Copper Proteinate, Selenium Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract

Interesting how they are using cheaper ingredients now and charging more?  

Notice the use of "egg product" now vs. "eggs" (old), and "potato product" vs. "potatoes."  Also the absence of the words "low ash meal" and "fresh chicken."  

 Also the addition of "Chicken fat" to the Ocean Blue formula. 
 

Lamb & Apples

New: Lamb, Ground Brown Rice, Salmon Meal, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat, Oat Groats, Ground Barley, Salmon, Dried Whey Extract, Dried Apples, Ground Rosemary, Ground Cinnamon, Ground Thyme, Ground Anise Seed, Ground Ginger, Ground Basil, Dried Mint, Dried Kelp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Egg Product, Salmon Oil, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Dried Tomato Pomace, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Lecithin, Montmorillonite Clay, Diatomaceous Earth, Taurine, L-Lysine, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium longum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Choline Chloride, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Cobalt Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Citric Acid, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Rosemary Extract

Old: Lamb, Salmon Meal, Lamb Meal, Salmon, Whole Ground Oats, Whole Ground Barley, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract), Whole Ground Flaxseed, Unrefined Walnut Oil, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Dried Goat's Milk, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Wild Salmon Oil, Cottage Cheese, Potassium Chloride, Rosemary, Amaranth, Apples, Cinnamon, Thyme, Dried Carrots, Anise Seed, Ginger Root, Basil, Dried Mint, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Copper Proteinate, Selenium Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract
 

Wilderness Elk

New: Elk, Salmon Meal, Ground Millet, Ground Brown Rice, Oat Groats, Chicken Fat, Sweet Potatoes, Salmon Oil, Natural Flavors, Dried Apples, Dried Blueberries, Dried Cranberries, Dried Figs, Ground Thyme, Ground Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon, Ground Fenugreek, Dried Garlic, Ground Sunflower Seeds, Ground Sesame Seeds, Dried Kelp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Dried Egg Product, L-Lysine, Dried Tomato Pomace, Dried Whey Extract, Casein, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Lecithin, Taurine, DL-Methionine, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium longum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Choline Chloride, Iron Amino Acid Complex Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Cobalt Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Citric Acid, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Rosemary Extract

Old: Fresh Elk, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Amaranth, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract
 

Dakota Bison

New: Bison, Salmon Meal, Ground Millet, Ground Brown Rice, Oat Groats, Chicken Fat, Sweet Potatoes, Salmon Oil, Dried Apples, Dried Cranberries, Dried Figs, Ground Thyme, Ground Anise Seed, Natural Flavors, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Dried Egg Product, L-Lysine, Tomato Pomace, Dried Whey Extract, Dried Casein, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Lecithin, Taurine, DL-Methionine, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium longum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Choline Chloride, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Cobalt Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Citric Acid, Yucca Schidigera Extract , Rosemary Extract

Old: Fresh Bison Meat, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Amaranth, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract 

 If any of the TWO reps who occasionally troll the boards would like to pipe in about the changes, I would love to hear them! Thanks for finding and reposting those ingredients, Sooner.

Cita

 If any of the TWO reps who occasionally troll the boards would like to pipe in about the changes, I would love to hear them! Thanks for finding and reposting those ingredients, Sooner.

 That would be nice!

 I also noticed (as Sooner just posted) that they added chicken fat to the Dakota Bison formula and switched a few others around.  I am very curious how these changes constitute for a price increase.  I also notice that the new ingredients used are the "similar equivalents" to that of the ingredients used in Diamond formulas (like egg product, potato product).  I wonder if this has anything to do with it being manufactured in a Diamond plant, if they still do (I can't remember what happened with all of that).

I also noticed that these changes haven't changed the protein/fat amounts or the kcal amounts...that seems a little strange as some of the changes should have that effect.  I'm not 100% on that though....
 

I know many people use TWO with good results, but this company is just too fishy for me to even want to deal with.  I just will not trust my dogs health to a company that does things like this. (JMO though) 

well thats the end of our use of TWO. A perfect example of the dangers of not having the bag reflect the content.

Bugsy is severely allergic to egg.  I have been using the Bison formula.  So if I get a new ingredient bag thinking its the old formula he would have a severe reaction hives, throat closure etc.

Our options dwindle
 

From another forum:

"They've also replaced the selenium proteinate in the lamb and apple formula to sodium selenite which is toxic. That tears it! We're switching to Honest Kitchen or something. No way we're paying all that money for inferior products!"

I will look into this further, but it's not pointing TWO in a better direction... 

The switch from selenium proteinate to sodium selenite as a source of selenium is across all the formulas.  On a side note, EP Holistic and Taste of the Wild use sodium selenite as well.  It can be toxic in very high doses from what I read but it seems to be a commonly used source.  These seem like pretty substantial reformulations....ingredients dropped, added, reordered and reworded.  I did notice the kibble was slightly darker the past 2 bags.  For the lamb formula: drop cottage cheese, dried goats milk, unrefiined walnut oil (talked about highly on the TO site), etc......add tomato pomace, dried egg product, brown rice to #2, Chicken Fat (IS IT STILL PRESERVED WITH MIXED TOCOPHEROLS?????), Diatomaceous Earth (Interesting holistic ingredient...natural dewormer, detoxifier, flea control in animals, coat shiner, as a food grade version)....less refined versions are used in pool filters and dynamite..and all kinds of stuff.  Formula changes should be announced ahead of any change with documented reasoning, explanation and projected date......not have already happened 4 to 5 months ago....and the new ingredients appear on the website suddenly in the past what...couple days?  I was on their site late last week to look at kcal/kg...to calculate kcal/cup....well it's now listed.

Hey Chris Porch....you there....how about some explanation....how about you change your website sooner than Joe's estimated month or SO from now.....I'm a loyal customer....and don't like being blindsided.