Feeding IBD dog

I have a 10 year old Xolo who has had a liver condition for 6 years and now has become IBD because of all the medications and the liver

problem. Feeding is a problem because some IBD foods are not compatible with the liver condition. He has been on I/D, Salmon  and Brown Rice, Rabbit and Potato, which has made his intestine problem worse. Found a good homemade diet for the liver, but it contains things that

aren't recommended for IBD dogs.  Does any one have any ideas?

AAFCO and "complete and balanced" means nothing.  In order to label a food as "complete and balanced", the following requirements must be met.

You get 8 dogs and feed them the new formula you are testing for 6 months.  If 6 of the dogs are still alive and have not lost more than 15% of their body weight and otherwise APPEAR healthy, that food can be AAFCO approved and labeled as "complete and balanced."  The test only lasts 6 months and 2 dogs can die and the food passes the test.  I think cardboard would pass the test.

The diet you want to feed your IBD dog is the natural diet that your dog was designed to eat.  Feeding artificial highly processed refuse from human food processing plants will go a long way to irritating the lining of the dog's GI tract.  Since a dog is a carnivore, the food he should be fed to minimize health problems is a diet of raw meat, bones, and organs.  These are the things that the dog has the easiest time with both nutritionally and digestionwise. It was the artificial food (kibble) that caused the problem to begin with. Continuing to feed the same thing can't possibly help. I also suggest you stay away from the premix raw foods. They are little more than raw kibble. They still have a lot of inappropriate ingredients. Remember, meat, bones, and organs are all your dog needs for his body to thrive without most of the problems that many dogs have in todays world..

  RawFedDogs;  IBD is a very serious condition and these dogs must be handled with kid gloves.Raw diets can work, but what usually has to be fed is a very bland low fat diet, and it's often a long path ( weeks to months) of trial and error to see what the dog can tolerate. Any ingredients that the dog can't tolerate will result in watery, bloody diarrhea.

  To the OP;  I'm so sorry you're going through this. Jackie's suggestions are good ones. If Monica can't help you, she will refer to you to someone who can, a veterinary nutritionist. This is the link to her site;

   Individualized Nutrition For Your Dogs

   Canned i/d can be expensive, but the ingredients may agree more with your dog's liver because there's more meat and less waste for the liver to deal with. The protein source in the canned i/d is turkey, which isn't as ammongenic as red meat. Perhaps you could feed i/d and give supplements for the liver like SAMe and milk thistle?

I know what IBD is along with IBS and pancreatitis and the rest of the digestive problems.  I've been helping people with dogs with these problems for 10 years.  Their problems are caused by feeding an improper diet that irritates the linings of the GI tract as well as overworks both the liver and pancreas.  Feeding more of the same food will do little if anything to help these dogs.  Trying dozens of different formulas of kibble MAY turn up a formula what will temporarily help.  As long as you are feeding inappropriate foods the problems will return and return and it is futile to continue to search for a mixture that the dog can tolerate.

As I said before, a diet of raw meat, bones and organs will always solve these digestive problems as long as the damage already done isn't so bad as to be irrepairable.  I have seen it happen time after time after time after time in all breeds of dogs.  It is the diet the dog's body was designed from snout to anus to eat, digest, and extract nutrients from.  Nothing else is necessary.  No veggies, no fruits, no supplements, no nothing.  There is nothing complex about feeding a dog a proper diet.  Feed mostly meat, some bones, and some organs from a variety of animals.  Exact ratio's don't matter.  It's much easier than feeding out own families.  Fed properly dog's digestive problems as well as a whole lot of other problems caused by forcing our dogs to eat a very mediocre artificial diet.  There is not a nutritionist alive that doesn't work for a dog food company that won't tell you that whole fresh food is far superior to processed food.  The more a food is processed the worse it is nutritionally.  Dog food is very highly processed refuse from human food processing companies.  Some of these human food processing companines actually own dog food factories as a profitable way to use their garbage.

Wild canines don't get these "diseases" our pets get because they eat properly.

 BTW:  It not a long road to recovery when you take the right path to recovery.

I've found that people who speak in absolute terms seem to see the world as black and white and right or wrong.  This leads them to believe that there is nothing in between their beliefs and the possibility that there is another side to a discussion.  I'm not opposed to feeding raw to domestic dogs but I don't believe it's the cure all for all dog diseases.  Your statement about wild canids isn't very convincing considering how long ago wolves and dogs diverged. 

There are absolutes and there are areas of gray.  Problems like IBS, IBD, pancreatitis, etc are caused by feeding improper food.  Kibble as only been fed in great amounts for about 50 years.  I can remember the first dogs I fed kibble to.  The above listed health problems have only been around to any great degree in about the same amount of time.  Those are facts.  Coincidence?  I don't think so.  I never claimed that raw is a cure all for all dog diseases.  I am saying it will cure those diseases of the digestive system that have only been around to any great degree for 50 years or so.  Caused by asking the dog's digestive system to digest things it wasn't designed to digest.

Dogs first begin "diverging" about 14,000 years ago.  Dogs have changed in outward appearance because of selective breeding by humans.  Their internal organs haven't changed.  The digestive tract of a domestic dog is identical to that of a wild wolf of today.  The only slight difference is that a wolf has a slightly larger head and slightly larger teeth.  Same head and same teeth, just slightly larger.

 BTW:  The domestic dog is still a wolf.  It is not a seperate species as some would have you believe.  DNA research proves that nothing bred with a wolf to create a dog.  Anytime you breed a wolf to a wolf, the resultant offspring is also a wolf.

RawFedDogs

Dogs first begin "diverging" about 14,000 years ago. 

Most research shows that the divergence started more than 100,000 years ago.  Domesticated dogs started appearing around 14,000 years ago in fossil remains but that date too is not set in stone. 

Did the dogs you fed kibble to have those digestive problems?  I've owned dogs for over 40 years and feed a commercial kibble and never had a dog with any of the conditions you claim are caused by kibble.   Using a small sample to prove a point doesn't work.  I could claim that a commercial diet prevents these problems if I used that logic.

RawFedDogs

  Kibble as only been fed in great amounts for about 50 years.  I can remember the first dogs I fed kibble to.  The above listed health problems have only been around to any great degree in about the same amount of time.  Those are facts.

The fact is that fifty years ago most people didn't take their dogs to the vet for this sort of problem.  The dog survived or it didn't without any diagnosis or treatment from a vet.  Diagnostics has come a long way in the last fifty years and we are treating dogs for conditions that no doubt killed many dogs before it became common for people to spend money on a vet for a pet.  Dogs died from all sorts of undiagnosed problems back in the day but some people believe these problems are all new because of the advanced veterinary care available now.

Again, I do believe feeding a balanced raw diet is healthy but I don't believe that it's the only healthy alternative for domestic dogs. 

JackieG

Most research shows that the divergence started more than 100,000 years ago.  Domesticated dogs started appearing around 14,000 years ago in fossil remains but that date too is not set in stone. 

The appearance of domestic dogs is what proves that divergence began and it didn't take long for it to happen.  Just a relatively few generations.  You can see this through the research at the Russian fox farm back in the 1940s.  The Russian fox farm experiment is very well documented online.  Basically what happened is that this farm started breeding only the meekest of the foxes together over several generations.  After only a few generations, changes began to appear in these wild foxes.  Color changes started taking place.  All kinds of colors not seen in foxes.  Their ears got floppy instead of standing upright.  Their tails start curling up over their backs  Their fur got longer.  They started barking.  I think all this took place after about 30 generations.  But doesn't matter how you bred these foxes and how different the offspring looked, they were still foxes.  The only thing that changed was their outward appearance and a few behavioral changes.  Does this look like what early man did to woves?  They bred the meekest of the wolves and the result was the same as with the foxes.  Doesn't matter how you breed wolves, the offspring are still wolves. 

JackieG

Did the dogs you fed kibble to have those digestive problems?

I only had one dog that got as serious as IBS but ALL my kibble fed dogs had huge, softish, smelly stools and they had them several times a day.  They also had terrible breath, lots of plaque and tarter on their teeth and they all had periodontal problems.  All of these are symptoms of feeding inappropriate food.  Not one of my raw fed dogs has had even one of these problems.  That would be symptoms of dogs fed a proper diet.

JackieG

The fact is that fifty years ago most people didn't take their dogs to the vet for this sort of problem.  The dog survived or it didn't without any diagnosis or treatment from a vet.  Diagnostics has come a long way in the last fifty years and we are treating dogs for conditions that no doubt killed many dogs before it became common for people to spend money on a vet for a pet.  Dogs died from all sorts of undiagnosed problems back in the day but some people believe these problems are all new because of the advanced veterinary care available now.

I owned dogs 50 years ago and it wasn't like that were I lived.  I never had a dog die of an undiagnosed problem and don't remember that any of my friends did.  We never hesitated to pay whatever amount needed for the health of our dogs.  I also don't remember dogs having digestive problems like they do today.  It is obvious when a dog has IBD or IBS or pancreatitis..  That can't be hidden or explained away because the vet didn't know something was wrong.  The pre-kibble dogs just didn't have those problems.

I'm not saying that every dog that is fed kibble will get the particular diseases we are discussing but I will say that if they have these problems, kibble is the cause.  Dogs fed a proper raw diet don't have these problems.  I will say with 100% certainty that kibble causes oversize softish smelly stools as well as tooth and gum problems in almost every dog that eats it.  It also causes the greatest majority of the allergy problems.  Allergy is another thing that dogs didn't have before kibble came along.

RawFedDogs

The appearance of domestic dogs is what proves that divergence began and it didn't take long for it to happen.  Just a relatively few generations.  You can see this through the research at the Russian fox farm back in the 1940s. 

Yes, I read that study many many years ago and it has much to say about domestication but not about the divergence of wolves and dogs.  You're incorrect about the divergence dates and are confusing it with estimated dates of domestication.  A quick google of some edu sites will confirm. 

RawFedDogs

but ALL my kibble fed dogs had huge, softish, smelly stools and they had them several times a day.  They also had terrible breath, lots of plaque and tarter on their teeth and they all had periodontal problems

My dogs eat a no grain kibble and they don't have any of these problems.  That doesn't mean it's the perfect diet but it seems to work for my dogs and ultimately that's what I look for in a dog food.

RawFedDogs

It also causes the greatest majority of the allergy problems.  Allergy is another thing that dogs didn't have before kibble came along.

 Most allergies in dogs are not food allergies but environmental.  Please note that I said most, not all, since there are dogs who are allergic to some ingredients in commercial foods.    Not every diet will work for every dog whether it's raw or a commercial product. 

We will have to agree to disagree on some of your points. :) 

xololover

He has been on I/D, Salmon  and Brown Rice, Rabbit and Potato, which has made his intestine problem worse. Found a good homemade diet for the liver, but it contains things that

aren't recommended for IBD dogs. 

 Does he tolerate sweet potato? Fish is liver friendly, and there's Natural Balance  Sweet Potato and Salmon formula;

   Sweet Potato & Fish Dry - *** Van Patten's Natural Balance Pet Foods, Inc.

JackieG

Yes, I read that study many many years ago and it has much to say about domestication but not about the divergence of wolves and dogs.  You're incorrect about the divergence dates and are confusing it with estimated dates of domestication.  A quick google of some edu sites will confirm. 

 Now you are just throwing up smoke and mirrors.  None of the animals you are talking about from 100,000 years ago survived the last age and have nothing to do with our dogs today. The point I am making about the the fox experiment is a logical explanation about why our dogs have a difference appearance but they are still wolves.  I dentical in almost every way except looks.

JackieG

My dogs eat a no grain kibble and they don't have any of these problems.  That doesn't mean it's the perfect diet but it seems to work for my dogs and ultimately that's what I look for in a dog food.

 Then why don't you shoot for the perfect food? :)

JackieG

Most allergies in dogs are not food allergies but environmental.  Please note that I said most, not all, since there are dogs who are allergic to some ingredients in commercial foods.

 We will have to disagree.  I think most allergies are food allergies but I have no data to back that up except that it seems that most people I talk to and work with who have allergic dogs seem to have the problem go away after switching to a proper raw diet.

JackieG

Not every diet will work for every dog whether it's raw or a commercial product.

This is going to be a huge major disagreement.  I am sure that every dog will thrive on a properly fed raw diet regardless of breed, age, or physical condition.  Just the same as every human will thrive on a properly designed diet of nothing but whole fresh foods.  I am also just as sure that no dog will be as healthy on a commercial diet as on a raw diet just as no human will be as healthy if all they eat are fast food and tv dinners (the human equilivent of kibble). I don't see how you can disagree with this paragraph. :)

One of my dogs (10 yrs old, weighing about 18 lbs) suffered from IBD.  In her case, the usual Prednisone and similar medications prescribed by her regular vet were not very helpful.  We eventually took her to a TCVM vet, who recommended the following:

1. Slippery elm capsules, one with each meal (breakfast and dinner).  Slippery elm is an herb that can be purchased at Whole Foods.
2. Change in diet.  At first we home-cooked a mix of yam and fish, but after our dog stabilized, we changed her to a potato and fish-based kibble.  We were cautioned to avoid chicken, beef and lamb, because those tend to be more irritable to a sensitive or allergic dog (and IBD is an auto-immune disease).
3. Acupuncture treatments.  These are costly, so they only lasted a month or two.
4. Special Chinese herbs, available only from the vet.

Best of luck with your dog.

I think you are on the right track as far as what you are feeding and supplementing. My PWD has had an increasingly sensitive stomach. She gets ahold of ANYTHING with grain in it and, watch out. Poor thing.  Just got her over one "treat" incident from this weekend and the neighbor gave her a "treat" yesterday (she didn't know what was in it) and we're back at square one again.

The digestive enzymes help out a BUNCH, for sure. 

 Not sure this helps at all.  Oh, also, your dog may just be an "eater."  Echo would eat all day long if she could, she is a big foodie.  So am I, to be honest LOL.

Good luck!