If I wanted to start competing in agility.....

 OK, well one of the clubs near me hosts AKC, UKC and CPE events but AKC seems to be what most organizations run in MI - from what I've seen online. Maybe we will start with that.

I have been snooping around on the AKC website for agility to learn more.

Thanks for all the info everyone! 

Question - if you have to title to move up, do you have to title every course/game before you can move up in any course/game?  I don't know how AKC works, but assuming you have to title to move up, say you title in jumpers but not standard, can you run novice standard and open jumpers?

Liesje

Why is working contacts bad for puppies?

If the contact obstacles are at full height or anywhere near it is very hard on the puppies shoulders taking the shock coming down obstacle.  The Aframe is the worst.  I just feel that is best to wait until the puppy is full grown to start training them on anything that involves them leaving the ground or jumping with any repetition or sudden direction shifts as the weave poles have.  This is especially true if you are training on mats over concrete.  Waiting until the puppy is a about a year and a half instead of a year really won't put you behind on agility training and you could use that time on control training (obedience) and will benefit you in the long term in agility.  Breed size and the speed that the dog matures does make a difference in when you start, so small dogs can generally start before large dogs.

I have seen too many dogs that were started too young and trained too hard and the owners end up with the dog having orthopedic problems when still a young dog.

 

Liesje

Question - if you have to title to move up, do you have to title every course/game before you can move up in any course/game?

I'll answer the AKC part.

The classes are: Novice, Open, Excellent A/B and you have 3 different types of courses JWW, Standard, Fast.

Now if you have never earned a AKC agility title you start in Novice A.  If the dog or you have previously earned a title you start in Novice B.

Moving up for each course type is independant of each other.  For example when you earn your Novice A JWW title you can move up in JWW to Open.  You can still be in novice for Standard and Fast.  Note: You must move to B in Standard and Fast since your dog has now earned a title.

All this holds true all the way to Excellent B (Where you will be at for the rest of your career with the dog).  Now if you start the dog over in the Perferred classes you start over at Novice (Of course B since you have titles).

Now for earning Mach Points and 2 Q's.  As soon as you enter the Excellent B class you can start earning Mach points regardless of what level you are at in the other Course (Standard or JWW).  But to earn 2Q's you must be in Excellent B class in both Standard and JWW.

 

Thanks!  Makes sense now.

As for contacts, our class was outside on grass and all of the contact obstacles were lower (low teeter, low dog walk, and very wide angle for the A-frame).  Luckily, I've never trained or been to a trial on mats, only outdoors or on turf.  The soccer place where our club used to train and hold trials had the best quality turf available.  It was well cushioned and the dogs didn't slip.  That place got sold and the new owner canceled the contracts, so the next trial was at a different soccer place with the crappy turf that is like plastic grass.  Dogs slipping and falling everywhere, I was a bit concerned/surprised.  One dog even slipped into the triple jump.  The fast Border Collies making tight turns were sliding all over.  Not cool.
 

 I would recommend you a) stop jumping your puppy, and b) start out with CPE instead of AKC. Work your way up to level 3 in CPE and then consider AKC. Go to their website and register your dog and read the rule book.

I'm appalled to hear instructors are actually encouraging you to damage your pup's joints. The rule at our club is absolutely NO jumping, NO full-height contact obstacles, and NO weaving until after the first birthday. And with a big dog, you might want to wait until after 15 months before doing these stressful activities. There's so much foundation work to be done with pups; no need to get on the obstacles until they are grown.

An article on early agility training:

http://www.silvia.trkman.net/agilityisgood2.htm

 

I tend to take things on an individual basis.  Having a back yard dedicated agility field, I have the luxury of doing that.  I've been doing lowered contacts with my puppy for a while.  I started doing jumps with no bar around 8 months and quickly went to 4" jumps.  (4" being about the height of her pasterns.)  Now at 10.5 months, we're up to 8" which is about elbow hight on her and she is most likely at her full height.  I did not work her everyday, we work for only about 10-15 minutes in a session (most of that is play) and my field is on plowed dirt.  Would I do this with another puppy?  All I can say is it would depend on the individual.  Zpuppy is very bold, curious, offers to do contacts, resilient, and sure footed.  (I have yet to meet a basenji that wasn't naturally aware of the back feet.  This is not something I've seen in most breeds.)  If she weren't all of these, I'd do something different.  If she were a larger, heavier breed that took longer to mature, I'd do something different.  I would not tell someone else, especially a newbie to agility, that they should/had to train this way, but I certainly feel comfortable with everything we've done. 

my latest agility dog we didn't put on any equipment until he was 1.5 years old. We did daily work on rocker boards, cavalletti, contact behavior on a board, shadow handling, focus, games, relationship building. At age 1.5 years we started jump training and starting putting him on equipment. I have never seen a dog learn the obstacles and jumps so quickly- because he was fully prepared. He competed and won his class two months after his first exposure to an a-frame. Contrast to previous dog, who was exposed to lowered obstacles, etc. from age six months. She didn't have the foundation to handle even lowered obstacles, got frustrated and occasionally scared and often lost focus, and we didn't feel confident enough to trial until she was 2.5 years old. And she has never shown the speed and motivation I know she is capable of.

mudpuppy

 We did daily work on rocker boards, cavalletti, contact behavior on a board, shadow handling, focus, games, relationship building. ...

 

I have to agree here.  This all makes a huge difference in training the well rounded agility dog.  I'm amazed at people who think that just because a dog likes to jump things, it will rock in agility, and when the dog gets fearful or anxious in class, they throw up hands in surprise.

I think that people who have ridden horses understand that all animals must learn striding, how to handle their bodies over jumps, lead changes and all of the handling skills before successfully and confidently navigating a course.  Even putting a wooden ladder on the ground and teaching the dog to carefully trot through the rungs one rung at a time makes a more agile, careful agility dog.  You want to create a thinking, educated, confident agility partner out there. 

There are so many good sources for agility knowledge out there like http//www.cleanrun.com  and books ad DVDs you can buy that explain the rules and courses. 

I don't see anything wrong with going and watching, though, and if allowed, to bring your dog there to see how it handles the crowds.   That alone is a good addition to pre-trialing education. 

 

 all newbies to agility want to do courses and if they are planning to compete, want to compete quickly.  I have trained 3 of my 4 dogs for competition (all at age 5 or older) and my next puppy (in 7 years or so ) will not see full obstacles until at least a year.  Not to say we won't practice 2o/2o, tippy boards, handling around jump standards w/ no bar, etc, but no full height stuff until then.  Why?  Because foundation is the KEY!  But no newbie wants to hear that.  No newbie wants to walk into an "agility" class and not see obstacles.  So we  (trainers) cater to that unfortunately.

I can understand the "wanting to see where we're at" in training.  I really can.  So take a class at a different facility!  Then you'll see what new surroundings will show you.  Train with at least 2-3 different trainers so you can see differences of handling styles.  Go to fun matches and see how you do.

AKC and USDAA are NOT venues I would recommend for an 18 mos old dog to begin in unless you are a seasoned handler in agility. (even then you'll find those trainers will not "plan" to be in the ring at that age, I don't!)   Not to mention the dog has to be that old in either of those, plus CPE.  Not sure about NADAC.  UKC is a year I believe.

With either CPE, USDAA or TDAA (the ones I compete in) you can send in your registration with your first premium or you can register online.  Give them an estimate of the height of your dog.  Each venue requires 1 -3 measurements.  The benefit of registering early is that they will mail your temporary card to you (USDAA) if they have one.  In USDAA you have to be measured at least once and then more based on the following:

  1. if your dog measures into the tallest height class by a large margin (an inch or more) then you only need one measurement

  2. if your dog measures into a height division in the middle of that division, then you need two,

  3. if your dog is on the cusp of a height measurement, you  need 3.  (my dog Tasha was measured 3 times at exactly 21" which is the cutoff between C 22 and C 26, so I opted for C 22 for the lower height)

I believe this holds true for CPE as well.  Not sure about TDAA just yet.

 
I would recommend CPE as your first venue at Level 1 if you really want to begin that young.  No weaves and no teeter.  Plus you can run on leash if need be.   If you guys do great at a few trials and you have weaves and teeter down, then consider doing AKC, USDAA or NADAC.

 

ETA: I really don't want to be negative, really I don't.  But if you compete now, and there are issues, then 2 years down the road when you begin to finally iron those out, you'll see the wisdom in what many of us have said here.  And it may be that you'll compete and everything will go great and there will be no problems!  Great!  :D  Now, after 3 years of agility, I can see the wisdom of having "Agility Foundation" classes where there are no full height obstacles used, but I don't think anyone would sign up. 
 

Really good insight, thank you and I am listening, trust me! :)
 

tashakota

 Why?  Because foundation is the KEY!  But no newbie wants to hear that.  No newbie wants to walk into an "agility" class and not see obstacles.  So we  (trainers) cater to that unfortunately.

I can understand the "wanting to see where we're at" in training.  I really can.  So take a class at a different facility!  Then you'll see what new surroundings will show you.  Train with at least 2-3 different trainers so you can see differences of handling styles.  Go to fun matches and see how you do.

 

I agree with you on different trainers. I believe that is a good philosophy in regular training as well. So far we have taken 2 agility classes with 2 different instructors and 2 different facilities. Both have been different and great. The next agility class we are going to take will be at yet another facility with a different instructor. I like to use a wide variety of instructors and take info from all of them.

 

I think that I have worked out a plan in my head on how I want our future training to go. The next class will be late Jan. then once spring hits I would like to join our local agility club and start practicing with them - taking their spring/summer class as well. So that will be 4 different classes with 4 different instructors and facilities. Then try some fun matches. 

 

Edited to add: If someone around here offered a course in just handling and vocal control I would be all over that! I hear what you are all saying about learning proper handling and control.  

I'd take that class! And I don't even have a young dog, just a green dog and more importantly I'm a total newbie at any kind of real formal training.

I'm definitely finding that I have a lot to learn as far as foundation skills still, even though for Marlowe obstacles are really no problem (he's very bold and is actually turning out to be a lot faster than I thought he'd be), my trainer tends to take for granted that those of us coming in to beginning agility already have skills like left and right heel, front, and a few other things that I don't even know the real names of because I've never done any kind of competitive obedience. And I don't really know how to go about teaching any of those things because we've never needed to know them before. Really fine-tuning Marlowe's position is not something I've ever had to even think about before and I find myself sometimes quite lost as to how to go about getting those skills--which I could work on at home if I knew where to start. And I'm really a visual/aural learner--just reading a description of how to do things usually gets me nowhere, I need to see it done and have them talk me through it a few times.

I agree with agilebasenji, a lot depends on the individual dog and the individual handler.  With my 1st agility dog, he was 2 before I started taking classes (only b/c this was about 12 years ago and agility was still somewhat new in my area).  I took classes for 2 years before we trialed.  In the meantime I joined a dog club, helped at our agility trial, etc...to get a feel of things.  By the time I went to my 1st trial I was somewhat comfortable with how things "go down" at a trial.  I also showed my horse a ton as a kid before this and it was somewhat similar.

Now with Dasher, my JRT things went much different.  I started training from the get go.  By that I mean shaping behaviors, clicker, hand jives, board work, etc.  Dasher went to his 1st trial when he was about 18 months old.  We started in AKC, did a few shows to get our feet wet then moved to USDAA trials.  Dasher has been showing in USDAA for just over a year now.  I still belong to my original dog club, its an AKC all breed club so I do end up entering 2 AKC trials each year as our club puts these show on.

 
Zip, my rescue JRT, is different as well.  I have had him 4 months, we are guessing he is about 1.5 years old at this point.  I have started him the same way I started Dasher, clicker, shaping, etc.  So far he is doing great, he is not on any contact equipment yet but he is doing really great board work so I am pleased with his progress.  Not sure when we will trial...I'll let him tell me.   Maybe this spring, maybe this summer, we'll see.  Most likely he will start with USDAA since that is pretty the only shows we go to, unless he makes his debut at my clubs AKC trial in the summer.

ETA: I also agree with what others have said about not rushing things.  Do things when you and your dog are comfortable.  Joining a dog club and helping at a trial or two maybe be helpful in giving you an idea on how things are run so you are comfortable when you become a competitor.

Good luck! 

 

Jewlieee

Edited to add: If someone around here offered a course in just handling and vocal control I would be all over that! I hear what you are all saying about learning proper handling and control.  

 

My trainer does...I am currently trying to rearrange my schedule so that I can take it.  

Thanks for this thread, btw, has been very helpful to me too. 

Where I train when I started Teddi in agility she was 6-7 months old. We did the teeter board (booga board?) and as low as goes A frame, the dog walk was introduced at 2' and for teeter work our trainer put a chair under the up side, so it was alreadly lifted and we would get our dogs up on the down side just above the contact zone, the teeter would "move" and then we stopped on the contact. No teeter dropping. Teddi was the youngest dog in the class she moved on to the next class which was focus with control. There we did 4-8 inch jumps, tables on the floor and basically obedience training in those obstacles. We were then told, come back when she is over a year. I train my other dog at the same facility and the trainer told me we could do "weaves" with Teddi, but we keep them spaced wide so she gets the idea of them around her. They touch her sides as she travels through and that is it. At home we have a teeter that is able to be set 8" and even then we do not allow it full drop. Teddi is so accustom to these things I am hoping training her on the real deal will be easy. Funny note, we took her to a fun event in Sept, she did low jumps and tunnels, but boy did I have to be the good handler to keep her off the full height contacts. She wanted to do them. I am glad she is brave, but no I don't want her hurt. My trainer believes in keeping the dogs healthy. She also said for competitiion (AKC) unless you really want to go for your MACH title just to show preferred. It is easier on the dog. That will probably be what I do with Belle. I don't think I will ever worry about titling.