Food For Thought

Yeah,,I have to agree with Sandra...that sounds like hogwash to me also.  

While there may be studies saying that certain ingredients help reduce certain ailments..such as glucosamine ( as a for instance ) I have never read a study where  feeding super premium food keeps pets healthier and living longer....then lower foods...or what some people consider lower gade foods.  I would think by now...since raw has been popular for a while now...that there would be results of studies of raw vs. kibble vs. canned food. I have never seen that either.  For every person that says they know someone that fed a dog lower grade food and it was unhealthy, smelled, had a dull coat etc etc etc. there is one that says they know of a dog that fed the same food and was completely healthy and lived a long life.  I would love to see studies myself.

Again,, I feed my dog food that I think is best for her. I feed her holistic with supplements and extras such as real meat, veggies and yogurt.   I am hoping to buy her a little more healthy time.  Will I?  I don't know.

 But I still don't understand how we can feed our dogs so many toxins and pesticides and still try to decide if the food we are feeding them is hurting them.

Yes, sorry. I was specifically meaning scientific, non-biased (i.e. not studies done by Iams) studies. I'm curious because I haven't seen any (yet I've been told, "Oh yes! There was a study that proved this...";), yet common sense would say that feeding high quality kibble is better for a dog's health than feeding low quality kibble.

Like I said before, when I switched to a high quality kibble I noticed a healthier dog (so did my vet, by the way). Of course, that's only anecdotal. But I can't really find anything else to go on. Is my dog truly healthier on the better kibble? I certainly think so. I'd be a fool to think that he's never going to get sick, or even develop a life threatening disease, though.

sandra_slayton

PUPPIES RAISED ON COMPLETE AND BALANCE KIBBLE ARE STUPIDER AND HARDER TO TRAIN!  THAT IS A LOAD OF HOGWASH...   

I eluded to this first I guess with reference to IQ, (I didn't want offend the American Cocker owners and casually tried to slip that one by).   I think the stupider and harder to train part would not the best choice of words to get the point across....but it's Mudpuddy.

Sandra, it doesn't really seem too fair of an analogy because I'm sure if you think back your parents were not holding back with supper time clean up and leftovers for the dogs.  I think it was more common for our parents (which would be great grandparents to most here) to use better judgment and more common sense when it comes to our dogs nutrition.

No offense to the Cocker owners, but I'll tell you story about my old Cody RIP.  Cody lived to about 10-11 years of age and was stickily a kibble fed dog.  He was the first dog I had owned, and got him shortly after I purchased my first home in '91.  I knew nothing about dog food and didn't really care.  I bought whatever I could find that was reasonably cheap.  He was fed reg. Purina Dog Chow and then I went even cheaper, Purina Mainstay.  I was buying the Mainstay in convenience store chain called Cumberland Farms.  I rarely supplemented, only with dinner scraps if he was lucky.  In regards to the IQ, Cody had trouble walking on a leash.  His entire life, could never really grasp the concept to come back a step or two and simply go around the pole on my side.  It would seem so simple to figure out, but it never clicked in for Cody.  Sure, smart enough to learn some basic tricks but not too sharp about anything else.  Mailbox post, stop sign, street sign, it didn't matter just didn't quite get it.  Much easier I guess just keep trying to no avail and wait for me steer him around or to go around.  It just wasn't in there in that respect. 

The very first walk with my Zoe and it was a new ball game.  Instinctively a much smarter dog without question although more credit to breeding rather than to nutrition.  The very first pole obstruction was quickly figured out and dealt with in about 1/2 second, back up and come around.  I'll never know if Cody would have been smarter if I fed different, but my feelings are good nutrition plays a role in brain function along side with the quality breeding.

Wait, are we talking about train-ability or raw intelligence? 

If we're talking about raw intelligence, then linking that to food certainly goes against scientific data regarding food and human intelligence (while there are studies showing diet has an effect on the ability to learn, I have never seen any study suggesting food has an effect on actual intelligence).

Suggesting nutrition has an effect on potential, well, I'd certainly disagree with that.
 

There HAVE been actual , reptuable studies done with mice fed processed vs less processed diet.

http://ajp.amjpathol.org/cgi/content/abstract/170/6/1893

Kidney disease (all measurable values and histopathology) delay, insulin resistance, gene products linked to inflammatory events, gene products associated with cancer etc.....all were significantly decreased in mice fed the less processed, ie low glycotoxin, diet. The mice also lived longer.

The results are very interesting and solid. This paper and various others linked to it are what started my on my nutrition research ideas....THIS is the kind of nutrition research that abolutely needs to be done., Anecdotal evidence is great, but I want to see actual results.

What about Pottenger's study,is that relevant here?

As for doing studies on raw V commercial,or commercial V home cooked etc etc Who's going to fund them?Certainly not the rich commercial food companies,as a study will expose their food for what it is...Inadequate! They have drummed into us for years that feeding a complete and balanced diet and nothing else is the only way to keep our pets healthy

Anecdotal evidence and common sense is all we have. IMHO it's a no brainer on which dogs would be healthier,the dogs fed a diet of fresh whole foods for their entire lives,or the ones fed nothing but processed commercial foods....

Charlie-Do you feed any fresh foods,bones etc at all? IMO i dont care how superior or nutritious a commercial food is,or says it is.At the end of the day it is still a highly processed food in a box .I just cant see any living thing being at it's peak healthiest best eating nothing but processed foods?? Everyone needs fresh,real foods at least once a day,our dogs included.I bet the pets who get nothing but dry food absolutely CRAVE  real food  I know if i ate nothing but packet food for only a week i would be craving some fresh foods by the end of it!!

I am not quite sure what you meant about cleaning up the supper dishes and left overs, but our dogs didn't get them.  When you don't have much money and have a family of 7, there were rarely left overs and what were left over were used in another dish the next day or so.--veggies in soups and stews, mashed potatoes made into patties for breakfast the next day, etc..  We didn't have left over meats  The dogs got the cooked bones that were left (and I shudder at that today) from quail, dove, duck, squirrel, rbbit, chicken, pork, beef, , but that was the linit of left overs that they got.  They just got Purina Dog Chow with some cooked (shudder) bones. So human food would have no bearing on their health or the smartness of the pups, the trainabilty of the pups, etc.

We had a very good friend who had poibter who was fed only Purina his entire life--i think he died at 13.  He was a great quail dog and very, very smart.  Our friend use to say he didn't dare leave the keys in his jeep because if Clabberhead got madehim he was liable to jump in the jeep and drive off and leave him, the onwer, out in the field.  Of course thiis was just joking, but Clabberhead was a very, very smart dog.  there was a stupid bone in his body despite being on a "balanced and complete" kibble.  Same with our dogs.

Edie

I bet the pets who get nothing but dry food absolutely CRAVE  real food  I know if i ate nothing but packet food for only a week i would be craving some fresh foods by the end of it!!

What's funny is that a dog being switched from kibble to raw (specifically, RMB) doesn't always know what to do with the "real" food. 

I did get brave and a few times gave raw chicken gizzards and raw chicken hearts  to my dogs and that was the last thing they ate out of their pan.  Same with a raw ground turkey ball.  They don't seem to like raw and i have not given them any for a long time  Wasn't crazy about the idea to start with, but decided to try.    The one that is the most ginger about eating raw will snag a piece of fried fish, a fried pattie, etc off the counter in a heart beat, but never tries to snag anything raw.  

Sandra, raw food doesn't have as much smell to it. I think that's why they prefer the flavor of cooked foods. It's certainly why I prefer them. I'd much rather have a plate of steamed veggies than a plate of salad. I eat both, and so do my dogs. I save their cooked bits for treats (except fish, all their fish is cooked), since they do seem to prefer their food that way.

My silly anecdote for the day.... A couple of weeks ago, their meat was going bad, so I cooked it to make it last longer. Both dogs suddenly started acting like they were starving to death. I don't know what cooking took away (maybe fat content?), but they were knocking over trashcans, climbing on the table, and generally misbehaving. I threw away the cooked meat, and they went back to normal. 

Don't know if it is accurate or not, but I have read that dogs can actually pick up the scent of sesame seeds when driving by a McDonalds.  You wouldn't think with the smell of cooking meat, fries, onion rings, etc they could smell the seeds.  And i don't know how that could be proven unless they are going by the super strong smellers dogs have. 

i have seen our bird dogs be coverint ground fast and suddenly stop with their heads twisted completedly around, looking behind them, in a perfect set.  They would have gone past a covey of quail or even a single bird, and then due to tail wind picked up the scent, or even just  as they passed the bird. 

 The one time I gae them raw liver, honey woudln't even eat it and KayCee just nibbled and picked.  Buck did eat it okay.  I think they just don't care that much for raw.foodl  Take after their Mom, LOL.

Mine don't care much for raw liver, either. I add it to their veggie mix, and they like it fine, that way. I think it's the texture. Emma isn't a big fan of raw eggs, either. Slimy is no good, for her I'll have to agree. I can't eat slimy things, either. Fried okra, unless it's done *just* right, totally grosses me out, and I looooove my veggies.  

Their noses are pretty amazing. I have to wonder what a sesame seed smells like, LOL. I use them, in stir fries and such, and putting my nose in a BAG of them doesn't convey much. 

Edie

... i dont care how superior or nutritious a commercial food is,or says it is.At the end of the day it is still a highly processed food in a box .I just cant see any living thing being at it's peak healthiest best eating nothing but processed foods?? Everyone needs fresh,real foods at least once a day,our dogs included.I bet the pets who get nothing but dry food absolutely CRAVE  real food.

Edie

Charlie-Do you feed any fresh foods,bones etc at all? IMO i dont care how superior or nutritious a commercial food is,or says it is.At the end of the day it is still a highly processed food in a box .I just cant see any living thing being at it's peak healthiest best eating nothing but processed foods?? Everyone needs fresh,real foods at least once a day,our dogs included.I bet the pets who get nothing but dry food absolutely CRAVE  real food  I know if i ate nothing but packet food for only a week i would be craving some fresh foods by the end of it!!

Not necessary for my situation but I think a good idea for you folks (get over that hump; nutritional gap).  I could but it's an added expense I don't need for I am already paying extra for the added meat and fat proteins in the food.  Robert Abady will tell you the inclusion of fresh cooked or raw meat is always consistent with good feeding practice (paraphrasing) up to 15%.  The food is complete as is and uses independent processing for ingredients as needed.  Animals source proteins are not subject to high temp cooking.   Any grain is processed separately (white rice).  Vitamins are mixed in after the cooking process. 

At 870 cals (Basic Maintenance) per cup, I go with what the box states as being "complete" in itself.  My dogs will get meat table scraps from me, but nothing considered routine or part of the regular diet.  There is the occasional fresh Pheasant raw (by-product) treat, but not a lot.  Yes, I know it would be great add fresh meat or chicken daily, but I just don't do it.