Food For Thought

kelliope

I just finished watching the series on Discovery Health "The Truth About Food".  And I just recently went back to eating only whole foods (whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, organic dairy and fish) myself.  I eat no sugar or typical processed foods.  I have never felt better.  I cannot argue with the results.  They are amazing.  I had been tired all the time to the point of it interfering with my work.  I couldn't concentrate.  I kept going to the dr. and they couldn't find anything wrong.  So I tried this way of life just to see if it would help.  I was shocked.

 I could never do less for my dogs.  As very important members of my family they need the highest quality food too.  Will one or more of us get cancer or some other disease.  Quite possibly.  But we are going to live well and enjoy the highest quality nutrition that we can get our hands and paws (& hooves for my pony) for our lives.  And hopefully if it doesn't prolong our lives, it will make the quality of our lives and health better.

This not meant to be an offensive in regards to your post, but your post did make me think about some stuff.  There is very strong opposition to humanization of pets in regards to nutrition, and it has entered into the legal system.  It has stemmed from the recent pet food recall and they are under fire right now in regards to humanization.  The intentional mis-characterization of the dog as an omnivore, offering levels of nutrition below that of what is actually needed to sustain healthy life has in the past 50 years created pandemics stemming across breed lines.  The industry will never admit that for the sake of profitability, they offer you a sub-par diet.  They rationalize your humanized pet IS in fact just like you, an omnivore and should eat the exact same type of diet....a wholesome diet filled with very best ingredients just like you would eat....carrots and blueberries and peas and apples, broccoli, and cranberries, etc.  It's great for you, but your dog is not you needing a much higher level of nutrition. Well, dogs are breaking down across breed lines; vet clinics, office, vet techs, nutritionist, etc., are popping up everywhere!  Why...the growing need for all the sickness and problems created by the food, and THEY BLAME GENETICS!  It's all horse feathers people.  It's all in the food!

Take the GSD as a perfect example.  Feed the breed inappropriately (like an omnivore for decades) and suddenly the breed is plagued with HD.  What is causing this, why is this happening across the board...the Vets have no answer, must be a mystery, blame bad genetics, it happens and thats the way it goes, try these pills.  Since breed owners have wised up and have become better educated in regards to feeding more accordingly (like what a carnivore is supposed to eat, very low carb and fiber) we find the HD is 'genetically' not as much as a problem as prior and the GSD has rebounded wonderfully.  Robert Abady HAS NOT found the miracle cure for HD in his food.  All he is telling you is pregnant bitches (regardless of breed) when properly nourished will in fact yield puppies with text-book perfect hips each and every time.  When that path is followed for the pups nutrition and so on down the generations you eventually will eliminate the problem.  The answers are in the right foods, the appropriate foods for carnivores.

Don't be fooled by Golden's lined up in the clinic struggling with cancer feeding raw diets.  This is a criminal.  You have no idea what they were fed prior nor the sire and dam for that matter.  Generations of poor diet offered by the big names will play a role in the sickness.  Often owners turn to something like diet in a last ditch effort looking for the miracle fix and it's not happening in those regards.  But when you correct over time, feed accordingly over time, the trend will reverse itself as with the HD in the GSD.   Another argument can be made many raw diets (modern) have followed the same path in regards to omnivore approach and owners are still having problems.  If you're a person who insists upon feed a dog as you would feed yourself, you are the prime candidate for dog with problems.  Vegetarians (some) will attempt to feed their pets as they choose to eat.  Regardless of what they tell, those pets are not thriving...but then again matter of opinion, right?  The nutritional needs of dogs (carnivores) is more complex than the need of omnivores.  The diets need to be structured accordingly.   Home feeders supplementing kibbles with cooked and raw meat have beaten the problems created by the 'nutritional gap'.  That is the gap between the level of nutrition offered today by industry standards (omnivore) and what is actually needed for carnivores to sustain a healthy trouble free lives.

honestly, I think any diet that is 100% kibble is going to be deficient, especially if it's always the same kibble. Don't care what company or what ingredients. Odds are your dog will be healthier on Purina plus a variety of fresh food than on nothing but Evo day in day out. Of course odds are the dog will be healthier on a rotation of different kibbles plus fresh foods than on Purina plus fresh foods.

I know a lab who made it to age 16, healthy as could be, died of what we think was a stroke. You ask the owner what he fed, and he replied "iams". Failed to mention the dog actually got approximately 1/3 of the diet as raw meats and veg.

we find the HD is 'genetically' not as much as a problem as prior and the GSD has rebounded wonderfully.

 Why...the growing need for all the sickness and problems created by the food, and THEY BLAME GENETICS!  It's all horse feathers people.  It's all in the food!

er....sources??

 I can blame inbreeding just as effectively as blaming nutrition. There is no definitive proof either way. Oh whoops...except for running genetic tests that have been correlated time and time again...nutrtion cannot cause a gene mutation that will eliminate HD froma population. Can in amplify or dimish genes that would aggravate the process? Yes. But, nutrition can't cure cancer, AIDS, poverty, cause world peace etc....that's a bit much.

I make that chicken stew for mine almost  every week.  They get about 2/3 kibble and 1/3 chicken stew (or canned fish or fresh fish) every day.  I have been feeding fish done in the microwave (fresh) for several years and they sometimes had fish every day for a week at a time.But i do not fish near as much as i did back then so they canned canned salmon or mackeral twice a wee--did have fresh caught mackeral for them a couple of weeks ago.

 I did cook on the stove for them every couple of days, then started the crock pot cooking and doint a week's supply at a time.  Buck has been gonealmost 5 mmths now, and I stell make the same amount, but freeze bags of itand when I get several i skip a week of cooking and feed from the freezer.

 I have never roated food.  I changed Buck and kayCee from Purina Chow to the purina One Senior and there was no problem at all.  No problem with chaning KayCee to the Nutro--until I hopefully can find the One Senior again--But the one time i changed Buck to a "better food' he threw up every meal for 4 days and i dumped it. Only roatation they get is meat in the chicken stew.  I always have 5 pounds of thighs and 3-3 1/2 popunds of chicken necks, but the 3rd meat varies from 1 to 1 1/2 pounds of chicken gizzards cut up, 1 -1/2 pounds of calf liver cut up, a pound of ground trueky once in a while.  I prefer to use the organ meat.   There is always sweet potatoes, apples or pears and green beans, but i m ay use yellow squash, green squash, carrot slices, peas & carrot mix, et .Never had a problem with any combo i use.  And they LOVE any combo.

sandra_slayton

...But the one time i changed Buck to a "better food' he threw up every meal for 4 days and i dumped it.

It is my humble opinion, that foods like pedigree, purina, ol roy... are the reason so many dogs and cats have cancer, diabetes, obesity, dysplasia, etc.

I personally believe that the reason we see these pets with these diseases is because of things much more than food.  Genetics DOES play a part and so does all the pesticides and medications and vaccines we give.  Its pretty much common knowledge that many cats develop cancer at the site of a vaccination, and there is a lot controversy on vaccines attacking the immune system of our pets.  The HW pills we give are not much more than pesticides...how can we possibly expect a healthy pet to not get disease when feeding them pesticides??  Same with flea medication.   While it is important to vaccinate our pets especially when they are young,  and when we live in certain states where there is a lot of HW bearing mosquitos and live in areas where fleas are a problem...then we have to weigh out what is more dangerous.  But in my opinion, to talk about food causing these diseases without even considering all the other things we put in our pets that can't be good for them is not correct.  

I think most of us on this forum try to feed what we think is the best for our pets...thats all we can do. We think we are getting ahead of the game in protecting our pets by feeding them premium food. I do also.  But realistically...I have to wonder. Too many dogs that are on these foods are getting the same disease and illnesses.  We make ourselves think that maybe they would have been worse if they were not fed these premium foods...but do we know that?  I really think its much more than the food causing illness.

But in my opinion, to talk about food causing these diseases without even considering all the other things we put in our pets that can't be good for them is not correct.

 Bingo. That's what I was trying to say, Diet plays a notable part, of course, but we can't just say oh! Feed XXX and your dog will not get cancer.

The increased incidence (IS it an increased incidence? Does anyone have numbers on this? I always thought the the reason we "saw" more problems was because we have been getting more veterinary services, and more veterinary services equals more diagnoses, not necessarily more disease.

  I always thought the reason we "saw" more problems was because we have been getting more veterinary services, and more veterinary services equals more diagnoses, not necessarily more disease.

     I was discussing this with a young veterinarian at the vet teaching hospital where Jessie goes for her allergies and he said veterinarians are getting better at diagnosing cancer, which makes it seem like it's on the increase.
 

whtsthfrequency

 I can blame inbreeding just as effectively as blaming nutrition. There is no definitive proof either way. Oh whoops...except for running genetic tests that have been correlated time and time again...nutrtion cannot cause a gene mutation that will eliminate HD froma population. Can in amplify or dimish genes that would aggravate the process? Yes. But, nutrition can't cure cancer, AIDS, poverty, cause world peace etc....that's a bit much.

Absolutely in regards to unscrupulous breeders as a source of the problems to say the least.  A friend mentioned once (helped me train my pup on birds down at the club) that probably the absolute worst thing that can happen to your breed (anyones dog) is win 1st place at Westminster.  All this does is put pressure on the breeders to pump these dogs out and will lead to problems.   He used the Irish Setter as an example of a one time great reputation of quality bird hunting dog, ruined by the popularity and the need to pump out the pups, even if it meant improper breeding.  Now you have a one time great bird dog riddled with problems and they are not saught today by owners because of the trouble.  You never see an Irish Setter in working in a field today, not around here anyway.  French Brittany, GSP, Llewellin (field setters like my Zoe) dominate I would say around here, Brittany, English Pointer, the occasional Gordon will make an appearance....oh yes and a new club member has got himself a Boykin with we're going to hopefully put on some birds this year....my guess is a "flusher" not a "pointer" but we'll see.  We prefer pointers over flushers with our limited acreage of less than 300 acres.  We don't care for our birds being flushed off onto State Game Lands.  You never see the American Cocker, the Irish Setter, again due to the popularity caused problems (not necessarily health problems but IQ as well).

Nutrition may not be the supreme answer but I think you are reducing the odds when you do it right.  I do feel it is a big factor and look at nutrition as a best safe-guard against problems across the board, whole body.  Diet is everything in regards to supplying the dogs body with what is needed to properly fend off problems.  Problems across the board in regards to mouth and teeth, skin and coat,  nails to anal sac glands and everything in between, whole body, can be reduced...look toward diet for answers, appropriate diet for carnivores. 

The industry has no answers, and neither does veterinary medicine for fiber-based allergies.  The profit margin rests on that inclusion of fiber and those wholesome ingredients....humanized approach to feeding.  When problems arise and they don't have the answers things like "genetics" can become the common scape-goat.  If you are strictly a kibble feeder it would be in your best interest in the long run (the hopefully reduction of avoidable costly vet bills and care) to supplement with the home preprepared.  You have to take your nutrition for your carnivore above omnivore industry standards and supplement properly with any added meat and fat.  Don't concern yourself with veggies and fruit because that is the it must be good because it's good for me approach.  It takes meat and fat to leap that hurdle, to overcome that nutritional gap, not butternut squash and seaweed extracts.  Please don't tell you love Butternut Squash, you are not your dog, it's a moot point whether or not you like the ingredients.  What matters is the what the dog needs and that is the inclusion of meat and fat to get above todays industry standards.  You will have fewer problems in the long run.  Listen to people like Glenda and Sandra who talk about the inclusion of home cooked.  You will have less trouble in regards to health issues.

I agree that nutrition is a great way to reduce the chances (and severity) of health issues. There are, of course, many issues that wont be fixed by simply feeding a different diet. I feed my dog kibble and a few supplements (just some yogurt, coconut oil and a few eggs a week). When I switched to high quality kibble, though, I noticed a substantial difference in his coat.

I'm a fan of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it." The problem is, it's hard to tell "if it's broke." My neighbor feeds his GSD some pretty low quality kibble, yet his dog seems to be in great health. While I certainly think he should be fed better food, it's difficult to be convincing. I don't believe I've actually seen scientific proof that higher quality food, in dogs, means higher quality health - that's common sense of course. I'm curious, has anyone else found any actual studies that show this? I'd assume there would be some, and I've done some looking but so far I haven't found much.
 

sandra_slayton

The thing that struck me was the two old timers he just lost were different breeds, and to have 2 live that long, well I would say that food agreed with them.  Have no idea how my girls would do on it and have no intention of trying it. 

And I do know  that several people on my golden retriever forums who feed top of the line food, some raw, have lost dogs to cancer.  It is true that goldens are prone to cancer--something like 60% will die from cancer.  And from what I read, it doesn't seem to make any difference if they are eating raw. top of the line, middle, or bottom.

     I have to agree with this. I'll be the first one to tell you diet is a major factor in a dog's health, but so often genetics are overlooked. I know raw feeders who void their health guarantee should the owner not feed raw, and to me, thats a cop out for poor breeding practices. There's another raw feeder/breeder who is pretty well respected who claims no genetic testing would be needed if we all fed raw Someone's in la la foo foo land ... OTOH, a dog with a genetic predisposition for long life can eat Pedigree and live to be 15, and a dog who comes from short lived lines can die at age 2 even on raw. For a short while (about a week) I fed Pedigree to a litter of pups when I ran out of their usual food and was short on $. The stench eminating from those pups was unreal - I actually got sick inhaling it. It wasn't a stool odor, it was a strong body odor. Those pups were off the walls, too, while on it. There's nothing that will convince me its a good food. I've actually seen dogs on Dog Chow who looked and smelled better, lol.

there have been studies showing that diet plays a big role in the development of hip dysplasia-- not to led the breeders off the hook, because the dog FIRST has to inherit the genetic predisposition for diet to have any impact.

There was even a study showing that puppies raised on a "complete and balanced" kibble diet are stupider, more hyperactive, and harder to train than puppies who are supplemented with omega-3's.

Endless numbers of cats were caused to develop congestive heart failure after being fed "complete and balanced" commerical diets that happened to lack sufficient taurine.

Any dog food that contains corn is probably contaminated with low levels of aflatoxins, a carcinogen. Lots of foods have low levels of other carcinogens. You don't think feeding your dog low levels of carcinogens for ten years doesn't have something to do with developing cancers?

In humans practically all diseases that develop in mid-life or later are strongly linked to diet.

mudpuppy

There was even a study showing that puppies raised on a "complete and balanced" kibble diet are stupider, more hyperactive, and harder to train than puppies who are supplemented with omega-3's.

     Thats inaccurate. There was a study published by the Iams company a few years back that compared dogs on a "normal" kibble to dogs fed the Eukanuba puppy food with increased levels of the Omega 3 fatty acid DHA. They found that those pups responded better to training - they seemed to retain more of what they learned. Both groups were fed kibble, however.

mudpuppy

. Any dog food that contains corn is probably contaminated with low levels of aflatoxins, a carcinogen. Lots of foods have low levels of other carcinogens. You don't think feeding your dog low levels of carcinogens for ten years doesn't have something to do with developing cancers?

In humans practically all diseases that develop in mid-life or later are strongly linked to diet.

    
     Yes, a poor quality food can cause health issues, but I do educate my puppy people about this. I got one to switch from Pedigree to Iams, and she did notice a drastic decrease in hyperactivity & behavior problems. However, my point was in regards to breeders who fed raw negating their health guarantee if their pups eat kibble. A great amount of the food I feed is raw, and believe me, even raw fed dogs do develop issues. Now, we do have to factor in prenatal nutrition, and without a doubt, I see a marked difference in health with pups who were out of dams fed raw/cooked and different kibbles than the ones that were fed certain other kibbles or only kibble while in whelp. The pups are generally thriftier out of the ones that ate raw foods. I swear, they're almost walking around the whelping box from the time they're born, they are so vigorous, lol  My point is this, tho. There are going to be pups in any litter that have problems, regardless of diet, and if the genetic background is excellent, my pups that were weaned onto Eukanuba and now eat Purina ONE with their new owners are hardy, healthy and genetically sound. I'd be kennel blind if I negated my health guarantee because the pup is on Purina! That would be like saying, well, my pups are healthy, but only if they are eating X type of food! Now, if that owner ends up with a young dog with bad teeth, dirty ears, allergies, well thats not my problem nor is that something I'd cover in my guarantee, anyway. But if said pup develops juvenile cateracts or CHD (God forbid!), then I take responsibility, and do not place blame on Purina ... JMHO.    

I think every dog is different. my neighbor is feeding her Doberman Pedigree and he has dry skin and an odor. when I adopted Lizzy the shelter was feeding her Purina. she smelled awful. I feed her Nutro Ultra. she still has a little odor but much improved. she appears to be thriving but I think I will try Canidae. my first 2 dogs were raised on Purina and they lived long and healthy lives. feeding the highest quality food possible I'm sure will help counteract any bad effects from flea treatments, HW pills etc. 

PUPPIES RAISED ON COMPLETE AND BALANCE KIBBLE ARE STUPIDER AND HARDER TO TRAIN!  THAT IS A LOAD OF HOGWASH IF I EVER SAW IT.  WHOEVER DID THAT " STUDY" NEVER KNEW ANY OF OUR DOGS.  WE RAISED MANY FROM PUPPIES THAT WERE OUTSTANDING QUAIL DOGS, WERE NOT HARD TO TRAIN, IN FACT LERNED EXTREMELY FAST AT A VERY EARLY AGE  AND THEY WERE RAISED ON PURINA DOG CHOW.  OUR ONLY GOLDEN WE EVER USED FOR A DUCK DOG WAS STILL ON PURINA PUPPY CHOW WHEN HE WAS RETRIEVING DUCKS AT 6 MONTHS OF AGE, AND IN THE BLIND HE WAS AS STILL AND QUIET AS HE WAS SUPPOSE TO BE. 

SOME DOGS WILL BE HYPERACTIVE NO MATTER WHAT THEY EAT, JUST AS CHILDREN ARE.  IN BOTH CASES A CHANGE IN WHAT THEY EAT MAY HELP, BUT IN MOST KIDS IT ALSO TAKES DRUGS.  SOME KIDS CAN EAT A SMALL AMOUNT OF SUGAR AND ARE LIKE A HURRICANE, BUT DOES THAT MEAN ALL KIDS WHO EAT A TAD OF SUGAR ARE GOING TO BE HYPER.  HECK NO.  SOME CAN EAT AND TON OF SUGAR AND BE AS CALM AS A BREEZELESS DAY.

IF WE FOLLOW THIS LINE OF THOUGHT AND THAT OF A COUPLE OF OTHER POSTS, ALL DOGS WHO DO NOT EAT THE VERY TOP OF THE LINE OF FOOD, ETC, WILL BE STUPID, HARD TO TRAIN, HYPER, HAVE HD AND ELBOW PROBLEMS, TEETH AND MOUTH PROBLEMS, ALLERGIES, SKIN PROBLEMS, GET CANCER, GO BLIND, HAVE HORRIBLE GAS, FILL THE YARD WITH DINOSAUR POOPS, AND I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT ALL. 

IT AMAZES ME THAT IN 51 YEARS OF OWNING MY OWN DOGS, WE ONLY HAD ONE WITH HD AND THAT WAS OUR FIRST GOLDEN, WE HAVE HAD TWO GOLDENS WITH SEASONAL ALLERGIES, NEVER HAD ANY WITH ELBOW PROBLEMS, NEVER HAD ONE THAT HAD TEETH AND MOUTH TROUBLES, SOME HAVE HAD GAS FROM TIME TO TIME (kAYcEE AFTER EATING CHICKEN GIZZARDS) ONE WITH CANCER--MY IRISH SETTER AT AGE 12 1/2, AND WE HAVE YET TO HAVE A HYPER DOG, A DOG THAT WAS HARD TO TRAIN AND CERTAINLY NOT ONE THAT WAS STUPID.  AND THEY HAVE ALL BEEN RAISED AND ARE FED/WRE FED PURINA THEIR ENTIRE LONG LIVES.  EXCEPT NOW KAYCEE IS ON NUTRO NATURAL CHOICE SENIOR TIL I CAN LOACATE HER PURINA ONE SENIOR AGAIN.

I WOULD SAY WHOEVER "DID THIS STUDY" WAS TRYING TO PUSH SOME "TOP" OF THE LINE FOOD, OR RAW OR HOME COOKED COOK BOOK.  I THINK THAT IS PURE HOGWASH.