choke collar = bad obedience class?

ORIGINAL: KaraAnn

Made total sense.

But then if the dog isn't as interested in the reward as he/she is in whatever is distracting them from the command, then you just let him/her get away with not doing what you ask?

in essence, but the dog doesnt  get the treat or whatever reward you are using. our puppy will do almost anything to get a treat. when we are training the typical scenario would be something like this....
1. i ask for a sit
2. sydney doesnt sit for whatever reason
3. i say oops and turn my back to him for a few seconds.
4. i ask for a sit again and he immediately does it.(most of the time anyways)
5. then he gets the reward.

i try to treat obedience commands more like a request to do something rather than commanding the dog to do something. i feel our dogs are more likely to try and please us if we arent demanding that they perform at our whim. so to me if one of our dogs doesnt sit when asked they arent getting away with something, they are missing out on a treat.

we have worked at it long enough that sydney knows when i expect him to sit (before we go out to potty so i can easily pu the leash on and after we come back in so i can easily take the leash off). he will usually offer at sit at both instances without being asked. he likes getting ice cubes and will offer a down for that, as i have conditioned him to offer one for ice.

when we are in training mode, he knows that i hold the good stuff and if he does what i ask he will get some. it is very hard for any one to distract him during our training. it didnt start off that way, but after sometime he learned to focus on me.

it is amazing how quickly both our dogs picked up on new things once we started clicker training. for me free shaping is the most fun. we start a training session with regular commands to get them into the mood and then just see what happens. we taught sydney how to offer a beg by free shaping. i was holding some treats in my hand and not asking him for anything in particular and he sat on his hind legs in a begging position. after getting this a few times i assigned "beg" to the action and now he will perform it if asked.

Odie isn't very food motivated and that has made his training a bit more of a challenge.  OTOH, I think he really does want to do what he is commanded to do, MOST of the time.  Here is how I think it goes when he refuses a command:
 
ME:  "Odie, sit."
 
ODIE:  "You know, I would like to.  I really would.  But right now, I think I would rather sniff this dog's butt, if you don't mind.  Thanks for asking though."
 
ME:  Issues a correction, AKA, collar pop.
 
ODIE:  "Okay," as his butt hits the ground.

ORIGINAL: ud2be

Welcome to the confusing language of dog training! It is actually much easier than it reads.


Here's a web page that explains it well...
http://p073.ezboard.com/ffamilydogfrm17.showMessage?topicID=1439.topic]http://p073.ezboard.com/ffamilydogfrm17.showMessage?topicID=1439.topic[/link]' target='_blank' title='[linkhttp://p073.ezboard.com/ffamilydogfrm17.showMessage?topicID=1439.topic>http://p073.ezboard.com/ffamilydogfrm17.showMessage?topicID=1439.topic]http://p073.ezboard.com/ffamilydogfrm17.showMessage?topicID=1439.topic[/link]'>http://p073.ezboard.com/ffamilydogfrm17.showMessage?topicID=1439.topic

i read through some of that, and i have to say i disagree with most (if not all) of what is said there. negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment are different ways of saying that they are punishing the dog for doing something incorrectly or not on command.

positive reinforcement is not "ADD something that INCREASES a behavior". it is encourage your dog to behave as requested. " Negative = subtract, take away - it's "math" not a values statement." -- wrong. positive and negative reinforcement are values statements, not math.

this was the same way the choke chain trainer tried to explain it to us when we unfortunately took amelia to his class. i thought it was rubbish then and my opinion hasnt changed.

You are entitled to your opinon, of course.
 
I know it is popular to call 'no force' training purely positive. I do not believe that purely positive training is possible. You can train totally naked, that is no leash, collar, hands off - and I find value in that. However, witholding the reward is still punishment.
 
 
KaraAnn, good luck - let us know if you find a class that you like and I'll be looking in for news of your progress.

ORIGINAL: ud2be
However, witholding the reward is still punishment.

 
Uh... I disagree. Hopefully a trainer will jump in and correct me if I'm wrong here. I think what you're referring to is "negative punishment," or the removal of a positive reinforcer. This is not the same as withholding. It's ending something (positive) that's already in progress. So, an example of a negative punishment would be, you're playing tug with your dog, he bites you, the game ends. Witholding would be, you are asking the dog to sit, he is getting NO positive reinforcing at that moment, and he does not get a positive reinforcement until he sits.

ORIGINAL: ud2be

You are entitled to your opinon, of course.

I know it is popular to call 'no force' training purely positive. I do not believe that purely positive training is possible. You can train totally naked, that is no leash, collar, hands off - and I find value in that. However, witholding the reward is still punishment.

but not physical punishment. ie: i cant crush my dogs trachea by withholding treats.

i dont see it as punishment anyway. if the treat is never offered, then it cant be taken away or withheld. our dogs dont get a treat each time they perform a command. in the beginning yes, but once the command is learned no. they keep performing in anticipation of getting a treat and they still get them from time to time.

i have a hard time believing that physical or forceful training offers any positive aspects to the dog.

when we tried the choker class, amelia learned NOTHING. we had already taught her to sit before that using no training apparatices (sp?). once i put that collar on her, she would do nothing except lay on the ground/floor. when i would try to lightly "pop" the leash, she would look at me with her beautiful brown eyes as if to say "why are you torturing me? i only want to love you, dont you love me?". it only took one class for me to realize that losing $100 was much better than putting me and her through that for 8 wks.

i like what suzanne clothier has to say about gently leading your dogs and positive reinforcement training methods in her book "bones would rain from the sky".

well said jones. that is pretty much my take on it as well.

Okay, I don't understand, cyclefriend and jones. However, I'm not looking to debate. We all have dogs and all train the way we want to train.
 
I would not expect one way to work for all dogs and people. But I don't become closed minded either.
 
I am glad that I have dogs that have good obedience skills, have earned advanced obedience titles in two registries. My dogs don't cower, aren't afraid to be wrong, and look to me for leadership.
 
I'm pretty happy with that. I teach my students to train their dogs with respect and compassion, but sometimes that means more than witholding a cookie.

like Odie, Gracie isn't all that food motivated. A lot of the time she could really care wether or not she gets a treat, especially when she gets what I call 'puppyhead'. Here's a great example.

Gracie does ok with heeling on the leash, she will also sit if asked to while on a walk. However if we encounter something she thinks is interesting like, another dog, or sprinklers or a bird or a cat then her hind brain switches on and NO treat in the world will get her attention. Typically I try to get her to sit, she doesn't sit, I push her butt down and try to get her to focus on me, which doesn't happen, I end up dragging her away out of line of sight of the object of her interest. Mind you I don't get upset or mad. I remain totally calm.

When we go to the dog park, my BF will walk Gracie to the car when we are leaving and he expects her to heel but Gracie wants to play with every dog that walks by. No treat in the world will make her heel.

I have tried feeding her less before training time, to make the treats more appealing. She could care less. I've tried real beef jerky, dehydrated chicken - duck - pork - sweet potato, hot dogs, raw ground beef, raw ground turkey, and cold cuts and various cat treats. I haven't tried cheese yet. That's next.

Gracie is trainable. I taught her shake in a matter of 4 repitions. So I know we can do it. I just think saying "Too bad!" and not giving her a treat isn't going to work.

the humane society of the US has a pretty good desription of positive reinforcement training and why and how it works on their web site....
[linkhttp://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/our_pets_for_life_program/dog_behavior_tip_sheets/positive_reinforcement_training_your_dog_with_treats_and_praise.html]hsus +R training[/link]

Kara Ann, how old is your dog and what breed?
 
Are you familiar with a philosophy of NILIF, Nothing in Life is Free?
Basically, it is your dog must do something to earn all privledges.
 
Sit and stay while you put her food bowl down.
Sit and stay while you open the door to let her out.
Move out of your way when you want to walk past.
Down and stay before you offer her attention and affection.
 
You want to become her pack leader, that everything she finds value in - comes from you and she doesn't get it - until you let her have it, and that would be after she obeys a command.
 
Um, if you've ever raised a teenager - this is easier.
 
It isn't cruel, there is no physical punishment. You wait her out, that door won't open until she sits...
 
This is just the beginning - do this at home, when you are master of the domain there, then you will begin to ask for her obedience outside and in increasing distracting places.
 
A good obedience class or instructor will be helpful, especially if this is your first dog.
 
 

KaraAnn, read paragraph 5 and beyond... it is much better said here,
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/puppack.html
 
 

Yes we have been doing NILIF since day 1. Gracie has to accomplish some task that we ask her to do before she can do anything like get afftection, play, have the leash put on, get fed, go out the door, etc. The breeder insisted on it and it made perfect sense. She is a VERY good girl at home and even stops woofing at things when we say "thank you, Gracie". She has clearly defined 'house rules' that she follows perfectly. Like if somone comes to the door she must sit and nicely greet people and that she is not allowed in the kitchen when we are cooking, and 'go to bed' means go lay down in your crate. Right now she knows sit, stay, down (sort of), heel, leave it (with toys, treats and food) and shake.

She still jumps up from time to time when she is very excited, but that is becoming less of an issue. She jumps up and we ignore her. The ignoring thing works well with her. She is horrible with recall or come if she is involved in something that has her attention.

Gracie is almost 9 months old. We have had her for 3 months now. She is a Dogo Argentino.

We don't have any kids so I have no idea what raising a teenager is like, but I imagine it's no fun at all! [:-]

She is beginning her teenage years.
 
I've not experienced her breed, but a quick google search gave me a snapshot. A large mastiff type, excellent guardian.
 
Here's what I read: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/dogo.htm
Firm consistent hand in training. Not cruel, but authoritatize.
 
Is this your only dog? This dog would (in my opinon) would benefit from early socialization in an obedience class. I would prefer a training collar on the dog if you were in my class. For a dog of this size and strength, a prong collar - well fitted.
 
But that is me, I really didn't come here to start anything with people who would object. I came by here because I thought I had something to offer.
 
Training the recall, or come command: Practice practice practice. Practice with every meal, call dog to come.  Call dog to go for a walk outside. Call dog to play with a toy. When out in the yard - use a 50 ft. long line and let the dog drag it around. Call come, and if your dog doesn't pick up the line and gently guide him toward you, calling come. Nice reward and praise when he gets to you. Then release him to go back to sniffing or whatever. In a few moments, call again. And again. End on a good note. The deal is that if your dog doesn't come, then you can "help" him come by picking up the line. Or just go and get him and bring him back to where you were standing when you called come.
 
Don't call your dog to come and do anything your dog finds unpleasant, like clipping nails, cleaning ears, etc.
 
I'm leaving this board, as I don't think I'm a good fit for the status quo...