Prong Collar and Other Non-PC Training Items

I used to use a choke chain--swore by it with the training of our first dog, an akita mix, and when I did the intial training of Conrad. Now, though I'd much rather see a dog on a (properly fitted) prong collar than a choker, they make me queasy to see dogs in them. And double-queasy because that used to be me popping the chain, and it used to be Conrad putting his ears back and startling.

I'd like to see everyone start out with the least invasive training equipment and then if after real effort and professional instruction that does not work, move up a notch. But to go straight to something so severe before you really know whether or not your dog actually needs that I think is really a mistake. Knowing what I know now, using a choker on Conrad was ridiculous. He in no way needs that kind of training; he's a very soft, compliant, eager to please (for a hound) dog. On top of that, he's got fear issues and all sorts of other contraindications for using compulsion-based physical training. And it didn't really teach him how to loose-lead walk anyway. It taught him to avoid physical corrections while on a choker. Once I move him over to a flat collar, he had to be somewhat retrained to not pull. What he learned was to avoid pain, not to walk on loose lead.

I have friends who walked into the training room w/their dog and a bag FULL of "PC" training tools, $2000 less in their pockets, and the parting advice from their previous "positive" trainer to euth the dog for DA and other issues.  They announced to our trainer "You're our last hope"
 
Please say hello to Livvy, who now lives w/another dog, has a CGC and will be working toward Rally and Obedience titles this year.  Different tools work w/different dogs.  An e-collar works for Liv - and she's a peach!

 
 

I don't use shock collars(E-Collar makes me think of a cone) for obedeience training ever.  I will use prongs, Easy Walk Harnesses and head halters.  I don't recommend chokes because there is too much room for error which can cause injury.  My manager hates when I use prongs, but used properly, they work.  I just tell her that I'm the trainer and that its my decision and the decision of the owner.  Then she shuts up because she is very confused on training.  She claims to be all positive reinforcment, but then flips her dog who is going to be a 70 lb dog on his back and admits that she almost lost control of the situation and he started to show aggression towards her.  She hates clicker training because she thinks its hard...hmm...I guess pushing a button is pretty hard.  Anyway, I use different tools and methods.  Rose does best with very little correction and lots of praise.  Colton needs more correction and lots of praise.  But, no matter what method I use I always make sure:
POSITIVE OUTWEIGHTS NEGATIVE!

I'm thinking of picking up a prong collar for Tojo. He is so resistent to corrections. He acts like nothing even happened and goes about his merry way.

I finally broke down and used a prong on Thor a few years ago after he dragged me down the street on my butt when I was trying to be a tree.  Today I would use the Easy Walk if I needed a tool, but it wasn't available back then.  I've learned a lot since those days and I've especially learned that the very BEST training tool is my voice.  JMHO
 

I think this is hard because the question assumes that you can make sweeping "political" judgements about types of trainers or training tools when, on a practical level, you can't. Any bonehead can call themselves a dog trainer.

It sounds like Rolenta and BevoLV's friend had experiences with bad, ineffective clicker trainers. That's unfortunate because dogs like Shibas that are resistant to correction or otherwise independent can do really well with positive reinforcement environment. Better than traditional environments because, as you say, they're reisistant to corrections and extremely self-interested.

I got really, really far with an outrageously drivey and independent dog this way, after banging my head against how ineffective corrections were. But I didn't have a trainer who acted like Rolenta's did. My clicker trainer expected all dogs to be trained. And she had the tools to teach me how to make that happen.

I would definitely keep searching around for a trainer that won't act like your dog is untrainable, because that is really unprofessional and lame. And I would not assume that you need a prong collar in order to do it. A better trainer is not the same as a more forceful or less wimpy trainer.

IMO there are way too many people out there who call themsleves trainers who have very very little experience dealing with the independent breeds. I like to see a trainer who has worked extensively, to titles, with non-herding, non-retrieving breeds. The fact that Anne has a coonhound who is an accomplished therapy dog speaks volumes to me about the quality of her training. A trainer who gives up on independent dogs shouldn't be called a dog trainer, they should be called an Aussie trainer.
 
Having said that, I believed wholeheartedly that Marlowe could be trained and he was the only dog in our clicker class to earn his CGC. The lab didn't do it, the goldendoodle didn't do it, but the coonhound did it. There was another hound mix in the class and you could tell that his owner was just convinced he had a stubborn, untrainable dog (there was a lot of yelling and repeating of the command over and over). And he didn't pass the test either. Our trainer believed in us and I believed in Marlowe.

I'd like to see everyone start out with the least invasive training equipment and then if after real effort and professional instruction that does not work, move up a notch. But to go straight to something so severe before you really know whether or not your dog actually needs that I think is really a mistake.

I also strongly believe this is the way things should be. Start soft and up the ante if necessary.

I just think you use what you need to use- I'm not a fan of head halters or, for the most part, the body harnesses (I think they're gimmicky, hard to wean off of, and too prone to become a management tool permanantly rather than a temporary one- plus I have concerns about the lt effects of the head halters- not to say I'd never use them if I needed to, but I strongly prefer a regular collar), but I do think MOST dogs that get trained properly can work just fine through training on a martingale collar. I'm really NOT a fan of chokes, though- I attend classes at a very 'traditional' obedience club and I wish that they'd switch to the choices being martingale or prong instead of choke or prong, for their recommended collars. (But since we use it as a place to practice and proof more than a place to train, well... yeah.).

What I *mostly* wish would change is the extremes- I wish more people fit 'in the middle' of the dog training spectrum- with lots of positive reinforcement (not just praise!) without getting nagged by the 'alpha' model people who are convinced that any treats = bribery, and able to use appropriate corections without the 'pure positive' people screaming about how abused their dogs are and if they were just better owners, they wouldn't NEED to use corrections.

Hi Rolenta,

I think that's a great observation that you're making. Different dogs have different personalities; some are "harder", some "softer". Same with us humans, we have values and personality styles that make some training protocols more attractive to us than others.

My dog, like yours, must "respect" a human in order to follow cues. Simply using rewards leads her to be more willfully manipulative. So, I use a mix of rewards and corrections, along with a lot attention to maintaining our relationship.

I think what you see happening with trainers like Leerburg or the "only positive" person you mentioned, is that a professional gets good and comfortable with one kind of dog and one kind of training protocol, then tends to believe there is no other way. It's great to have specialists, we civilians just need to keep a good perspective, to get ourselves around the right information for our own situations.

So, if you get the prong, do you have someone to help you fit it and to show you how to use it properly? I use a prong with Ixa sometimes. I agree that it doens't "teach loose lead walking", but it does create a calm environment and maintains focus so that you can teach lasting behaviors.

I just think you use what you need to use- I'm not a fan of head halters or, for the most part, the body harnesses (I think they're gimmicky, hard to wean off of, and too prone to become a management tool permanantly rather than a temporary one- plus I have concerns about the lt effects of the head halters- not to say I'd never use them if I needed to, but I strongly prefer a regular collar), but I do think MOST dogs that get trained properly can work just fine through training on a martingale collar. I'm really NOT a fan of chokes, though- I attend classes at a very 'traditional' obedience club and I wish that they'd switch to the choices being martingale or prong instead of choke or prong, for their recommended collars. (But since we use it as a place to practice and proof more than a place to train, well... yeah.).

What I *mostly* wish would change is the extremes- I wish more people fit 'in the middle' of the dog training spectrum- with lots of positive reinforcement (not just praise!) without getting nagged by the 'alpha' model people who are convinced that any treats = bribery, and able to use appropriate corections without the 'pure positive' people screaming about how abused their dogs are and if they were just better owners, they wouldn't NEED to use corrections.

I'll just quote that since I agree 100% with everything.  I don't have much experiences with halters and harnesses, so I'm not really comfortable using them.  Ideally, I like to work on heeling and leash manners without ANY leash or collar - just by reinforcing the dog to follow and execute commands while we are in an enclosed dog run.  Once we do that fairly well, it's not too difficult to get nearer to perfect with a Martingale or properly fitted flat collar.  Martingales are my favorite "training" collar.  I have used a prong on my uncle's dog, but this is a working dog bred and conditioned for strength and endurance, and the way that she was behaving on a lead was really an immediate danger so we needed something like a prong that is safe for a dog of her size, somewhat self-correcting, and basically fail safe (I say "basically" because it's not 100% - one day we were in the woods and she saw another dog, bolted, and one of the prong's links came out!  She got loose and was running like mad trying to get at another dog.  I was terrified.  Luckily she ran past us and I got a good grab for her flat collar and caught her).

The only collar I will probably never use is ironically the common metal choke.  IMO a prong and/or Martingale is safer and more effective.

At the shelter, we are required to use these nylon chokes.  The staff know that it's not great for pullers and they do fit the worst cases for Gentle Leaders.  I think these chokes are great for dogs that already have great leash manners because they hang so loose it's like there's not even a collar there, but if the dog were to bolt, they aren't going anywhere. 


I got one for my dog for agility, but again, I'd only use one on a dog that was pretty good on a leash already.  I dunno, for me it seems weird to attach a lead to a flat buckle collar.  I guess working at the shelter has made me a pessimist so I'm always assuming that even the most well behaved dog could make a run for it and break or slip out of a flat collar, plus it's hard to position them on the right part of the neck for training.

She also said that shibas were untrainable and aggressive,

 
I don't understand a trainer thinking this much less saying it outloud.  I also think with an independent breed that it is very important when you're training a new behavior to keep it fun and have LOTS of rewards.  I have been known to use a "eh" as a verbal correction, but only after we've done quite a bit of training with the new behavior.  When I'm doing agility training and my dog blows me off (keep in mind that we're talking about master/excellent level dogs) I'll put him up and take the other one out.  This is done with no fussing or scolding, and is really the biggest correction I use when I'm training.  I haven't really had this problem with my new puppy as she always wants to be in the middle of things and is very food motivated. 
 
As far as Leerburg goes, I'm sure his methods work very well for his GSD's, but I don't think they'd be right for me or my basenjis.  (My malinois is a very soft dog, so I don't know that they'd work well for her either.)  I've managed to put over 20 titles on my brindlewonderkid and over a dozen on tri-ing, both basenjis (Coren ranked basenjis second from the bottom (just above the Afghan) on his trainablity scale.)  Their titles include excellent agility (brindle is master level), conformation, therapy, coursing and rally (novice title, but done nicely with my brindle taking 2 first places and 1 second and always in the upper 90's for a score).
 
I think the most important thing to decide is what belongs in your relationship with your dog. 
 
Otherwise, perhaps you could tell us what it is that you're trying to train your dog and maybe we can help.

I wouldn't follow Leersburg and I've GOT gsds.

Well... when I first got Tojo I didn't plan on doing any competition or sports at all and found that after I got him, so my goal was just basic house manners and walking nicely on lead. I'm still struggling with walking on lead, although I admit it's because I don't practise enough. We do a lot of off-leash at the dog run because I hate walking him on-lead. I don't want to use an anti-pulling harness because I'm getting interested in scootering and I want him to pull in harness. I tried a halti and he fights it 60% of the time. When he's not fighting, sure he's walking without pulling, but as soon as it comes off, he's back to pulling again.

I am starting to consider doing competition obedience and agility with him, if for nothing other than a challenge. So many people in the dog world keep telling me the evils of shibas and how terrible and untrainable they are and I know for a fact that Tojo is quite trainable, you just have to be smarter than he is. I'd also like to be a dog trainer some say (like, say, 20 years down the line) and I think having a shiba with an obedience title would give me more credibility. Plus... no time like the present to start practising.

Now I just have to find a reasonable trainer. The trainer I first went to breeds poodles and basically dislikes all other dogs, so I really don't like her.