Decline in pet training standards?

Ok, I have to admit, I have no idea what "JQP" "IMO" or "JMO" abbreviations mean in this forum. HELP!

I have no idea what "JQP" "IMO" or "JMO" abbreviations mean in this forum.

 
JQP stands for John Q. Public - an allusion to general folks representing the population of people in question - here, it's dog owners.
 
IMO stands for "In My Opinion", much the way "JMO" stands for "Just My Opinion"

Ok  lets try another analogy  in the field of education there are students and families, paraprofessionals, teachers, principals, superintendents, and ivy tower folk.   Now this is just a linear analogy nothing more.

Within that linear analogy there are varying degrees of knowledge and competence in each level, the same holds true in dogs.  I would guess that the number of folks who earn their living as "dog professionals" would be toward the principal, supers, ivy tower end of that line.

JQP would be similiar to grouping the same education example as people associated with elementary and secondary education.  Huge group much diversity verses a smaller group with potentially less diversity.

It is my experience that the majority of folks who own dogs, love or at least like their dogs.  I have learned the majority do not spend the amount of time, effort or money on their dogs that I do.  Most people who would hang around a board like this and post frequently, are not the typcial dog owners in the US.

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Both state that it is too hard to define a timeline for a dog showing improvement but it is easy to pass judgment on JQP that its obvious when time is not put in.

 
I didn't say it was to hard to define a timeline...in fact, I always try to...It isn't always exactly right, but we get close....
 
I am not quite sure what you are arguing DPU...
 
You seem to have the preconceived notion as to who I am, and read into what I post to understand it the way you want.  I am a behaviorist and trainer. I am happy to go above and beyond...I am very objective when dealing with my clients...but a trainer can tell when the client didn't do their homework....just like a teacher can tell with a student....
 

I stated my view in my first post.  PACleader asked me for a suggestion and what more can be done.  I responded.  I was asked to elaborate on how I arrived at my opinion.  I responded.  Why am I being depicted as arguing when I am the only one offering positive solutions to try and help remedy the dog's wows whereas bashing JQP or complaining about it, does nothing.
 
PACLeader, I understood exactly what you meant in defining a timeline.  Please reread my post..it is hard to define a timeline with precision for both dog professional and owner.  I only make judgements on the DP when they don#%92t want to discuss the timeline. 
 
“Preconceived notion as to who I am”?  I state my general opinion of Trainer#%92s attitude and the way they communicate and judge JQP.  You are a trainer, so yes that is my starting point.  Haven#%92t you noticed that because you have communicated with me and gave me more information, you have been pushed up a few notches in my book? 
 
Often time the average teacher doesn#%92t recognize learning disabilities within students.  If you are so equipped then up another notch for you.  MRV can attest to this.
 
Now here is a good example.  In one of my post in this thread the MOD removed some of the content and replaced it with “content removed”.  For the life of me, I don#%92t remember what I wrote and if I wrote it, I don#%92t think it was offensive.  Now if I don#%92t remember what I wrote and I think I did nothing wrong, how am I suppose to know what the problem is and how to fix it if it is not communicated to me.  Isn#%92t this a good analogy to bring home my points here.

DPU, I have been trying to figure out what your point of view is on this thread, and I am still pretty confused.

I *think* you are saying that "dog professionals" are to blame for the many ills that plague the American Dog/Owner relationship. And I *think* you are saying that you think this is true because a) they are the "professionals", and b) these so-called professionals can't even tell you what you perceive as basic things, like how long it will take to fix a problem.

Is this what you are saying?

Because if this is what you are saying, then you are going to continue to be disappointed. Dog "professionals" like trainers train human owners how to handle and train their dogs--they don't fix dogs as much as they consult with owners. If the owner doesn't follow through on the consultation, then the dog will remain untrained. How could any truly professional trainer tell a client how long it will take to fix a problem when it's totally out of their hands?

To address the original question, I think that this kind of confusion is a part of any class people take that is not about a grade or certification. Some people are going to take it really seriously, and most are not. When I took an obedience class, it was obvious that most of the people in the class were not doing their homework, that they were generally blaming their dog, and that they were going to leave with the same problems they came in with. The people who did the work, though, got a lot out of the class.

DPU, as a teacher myself, I don't see exactly how a trainer is supposed to make an unmotivated student care. I think my own trainer went way above and beyond the call. She was upbeat and interesting, easy to follow, made great handouts that made homework really easy to understand, was *very* available outside class, and made it very clear that the class was for the *people* and that the *people* needed to learn and follow through in order for things to work out right. She also kept her finger on everybody's personal goals and asked folks regularly if their goals were being met. And the answer I kept overhearing was, "No, but that's because I am not doing the homework."

Who's fault is this?

I'm sure that Mic or I could take a dog home with us and have it trained to a reasonable standard in a short period of time, but we cannot possibly take all our students' dogs home with us  (although I have them ask me to all the time []).  But, today, most people get dogs as companions.  That has implications that trainers aren't responsible for.  Example: the Irish Setter my uncle owned was actually a hunting dog, and only incidentally a companion.  Farm dogs of yesteryear spent all day following the farmer, or herding sheep.  Not now - a frisbee is all some of them get to herd unless their owners get creative and supply other outlets for their energy.  The standards for "military-style" training were probably excessive to begin with for the average dog whose owner would not have the skillset to train to that level.  Certainly, there are trainers who still adopt those methods, and there are some, who I prefer to emulate, who practice a more gentle style of training.  But, Ian Dunbar and DPU would not have been alone in days gone by, not wanting to participate in coercion of dogs.  My mother was "training with cookies" in those days because her mother had inculcated in her a more humane outlook.  Grandma was brought up on a farm and snuck the hunting dogs into the house when no one was looking. []  These women did what they did with their dogs - instinctively.  And, the dogs were model citizens.  But, the methods weren't harsh, and they didn't do a lot of punishing.  What the did do was a lot more socializing of the puppies!!!  I think our more or less insular and busy lifestyles have a lot to do with any perceived lack of standards than anything.

I think it takes around three years of hard daily work to turn a puppy into a lovely well-behaved dog. People nowadays can't deal with that. They want instant gratification. They want "the training class" to magically train their dog. They aren't happy with small signs of progress, they want that problem fixed completely in an instant. And certain current TV shows aren't helping with this attitude at all.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

DPU, as a teacher myself, I don't see exactly how a trainer is supposed to make an unmotivated student care.

 
My message is so simple.  To help you, I remember someone here referencing a website that told a story of how a teacher (teacher's counselor) used the clicker to motivate, inspire, and teach trouble making uninterested students.  I really enjoyed the article and it showed how when one puts forth the effort and are creative, you get different results.  I wish I could reference the thread but if you want I will do a search.  Maybe someone else remembers it.

I believe I remember the thread you are talking about.

You are putting way too much responsibility on the teacher. It's a two-way street. Teachers should make every effort to make the material interesting and figure out how different kinds of people are engaging with it. But it's not a standup act, and the onus is not on the teacher to make students care, because students are not passively consuming their education. They are active participants. They have a choice to make.

Let's stick to obedience training class, and not digress into other kinds of classrooms. Unlike an elementary school student, there is nothing like a parent or a truant officer compelling a dog owner to keep coming to the obedience class they signed up for.

I think that a lot of people sign up for an obedience class with good intentions. They want to learn, and then other things become more important. A couple I know from the dogrun took obedience class with me, and they dropped out after not doing the homework many weeks in a row and having a frustrating time. They got pregnant, and got all consumed in what this huge life change meant, and just kept forgetting to do the homework because they were busy planning their lives. And then they realized that they were never going to catch up, and they quit.

The teacher didn't fail these people. They just realized that they couldn't bring their contribution to the table every week and decided to take the class later, when they were able to concentrate on it. This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it's the student's responsibility--particularly when the student is an adult--to figure out what the priorities are.

The thing I don't get about your whole argument is that you are saying that the dog owners taking these classes are less responsible for their own dogs' behavior than the teachers that spend what... about ten or twelve hours with the dog, in a room with about ten other dogs?

Why?

Fisher6000,
 
I remember your post "Save the Individual Dog” (that is don't) from way back when.  In it you advocated a change based on an educational principle that redefines what dog ownership means in America.  Don't you think the dog professional plays a big part in your vision and in fact don't they have to be the initiator for the whole thing to get off the ground?
 
From the beginning, the OP says:
 
"…noticing a decline in consistent, measurable standards within the dog training movement (basic pet dog training). He says that standards are disappearing or being lowered:
 
and
 
After nearly fifteen years with no standards, the average pet owner is left with only a vague notion that they should train their dog – they have no notion what that means or how long it should reasonably take. It is not unusual, for instance, for a dog owner to report investing hundreds of dollars and several months of intensive work, only to report they still can't take their dog for a walk or allow it to go for a run off-leash...

While the credentialing might ultimately address the "who” is offering the training, it does not address the "what” can/should the consumer reasonably expect.
 
Most posters disagreed and chose to blame JQP for not putting in the time, you included.  My position is to agree with statement that I as JQP have reasonable expectation of results.  In my opinion and experience it is the Dog behaviorist/Trainer's attitude toward JQP that works against these expectation being realized.  In addressing the complaints about JQP I say why don't you do this, why don't you do that…trying to initiate positive change.  What I get back is a disjointed statement that the owner is responsible and DPs are innocent bystander with no stake in owner or dog development.   That's your position?
 
Fisher6000, what is one thing that Behaviorist/Trainer can do to start your vision of redefining what dog ownership means?

Now Fisher6000, don't think I am one sided on this issue.  Each weekend I am meeting the public and showing them my love for the dog.  What little training techniques I know, I demo.  In conversations, one of the 1st thing I talk about is training.  I make a lot of referrals.  I must say it is easier talking to my fellow JQP than it is talking with Behaviorist/Trainers.  JQP are not locked into one view.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

DPU, as a teacher myself, I don't see exactly how a trainer is supposed to make an unmotivated student care.

My message is so simple.  To help you, I remember someone here referencing a website that told a story of how a teacher (teacher's counselor) used the clicker to motivate, inspire, and teach trouble making uninterested students.  I really enjoyed the article and it showed how when one puts forth the effort and are creative, you get different results.  I wish I could reference the thread but if you want I will do a search.  Maybe someone else remembers it.

I think what you are referring to is TAGTeach.