Decline in pet training standards?

To me that is valuable information.  Why not share that with the owner and leave the judgements behind.

 
What are you talking about...

ORIGINAL: TinaK

First, do average pet owners need programs with strict measurable outcomes?
What do you think is happening with owners, our dogs and/or our trainers, that contributes to this decline? Or, does anybody believe this is simply not true?

 
Above is the OP statement.  And I say yes, owners needs programs with measurable outcomes?
 
For example, can you tell me what the average time it takes to bring SA to a managed state.  For me and one dog, it took 3 months until I saw a peek of calm.  It was not for another 2 months before I can say the SA was managed.  Same question for leash aggression, same question for potty training, etc.  Being able to have a performance measures help the owner to assess whether progress is made, is just slow, or if an alternative method should be tried.

I can normally give a pretty good estimate of how long it should take.  I am not always right on, but most of the time we are pretty close.  There is, of course, no way to say it takes "5 weeks to cure SA in all dogs" (or something along those lines).  But after a consult I can give the person a time estimate on their particular case. 
 
The range is amazing on all things...We have been able to resolve a super distructive case of SA in 14 days, and then it took us 4 months to resolve what, on the surface, seemed like a mild case. 
 
That second one cost me a fortune...I quoted my price on a few weeks work, and charged for that, then it took me 16 weeks...ouch....

I agree with mudpuppy that aggression in dogs was sort of accepted, there were more off-leash well socialized dogs (people weren't obsessed with suing each other, hence dogs had more freedom, etc). BUT that's not all there was too it! Methods aside, the whole notion of an 'obedience trained dog' meant something different 20 years ago. When it was said "Such as such is obedience trained", we'd open our eyes - "Wow!", and *we had assumptions*. We had assumptions about what this dog could do. I don't assume anything when I hear average owners say that now. And yes, today more dogs are trained.

My dad was a trainer (he trained dogs for the military in Russia). Of course, we can't compare PetSmart classes in 2007 to military K9 prep decades ago, but, I do think that overall obedience back then (not competitive obedience) had higher standards. When trainers worked with a dog, they really worked with *that* dog. There were no group classes, there were no ginger bread treats, beef bites and chicken nuggets to satisfy all of your dogs' motivational needs. It was a very intense and exhausting process for all involved. It wasn't a leisurely class to take, were you could sit back and talk about your Pooch puking all over uncle Willie the other night. People came in with a totally different mindset.

I am a trainer, only I don't train dogs, I train people how to use software. I have to say, that a lot of these new age teaching methods in my field are a bit twisted... I can relate this to education and training in general. For example, we had a meeting where somebody talked about changing the pace of our courses to satisfy this ad-attention syndrome, whereby according to a "study" people need a change in a class every 7 minutes dues to .... advertising on tv being on every 7 minutes (and people just get used to it). All that people want to do is group work these days. The "wisdom of the crowds"... I, as a trainer, set standards. In the industry I am in, I have this old-fashioned dedication to standards, and I don't like the idea of my students doing it for me. Through the teaching methods I choose, I expect more. I am a bit of a hard *ss, but I am good [sm=devil.gif].

Anyway, you can see where I am going with this... I am glad we now know more about dog's mind, we have more tools and the right methods. Methods aside, we as trainers, set the vibe in our classes and expectations. Yes, people don't like to be tested. My take on this is "Too bad!" Don't take an obedience course. I'll offer another course for you called... something different. But, I do want general public to make assumptions when they hear "Buddy is obedience trained". []

Take jumping up for example...back in the 60's you would have put a choke chain on the dog and ripped his head off everytime the dog jumped up...or aggresively slam the dog in the chest or head. This certainly stopped the jumping...and sometimes in a matter of minutes.

Yep. Or, as they did it - by stepping on the back paws! Took 1 minute for a dog to learn, and I am not exaggerating.

Truth be told, there is no hard and fast time line.  There are approximates based on past experience.  The reality involves far more:  the dog, past experience, handler past experience, handler natural ability, handler coachability, timing, amount of practice, clarity of instruction (multiple approaches when one strategy does not work, amount of distracion used to proof skills, multiple environments.  I am sure there are other things to add to the list.

I don#%92t like to dwell on the evils of the past.  Although sometimes you do need to know history in order not to repeat it.  When a new dog comes into my home, its has a new life.  I deal with the dog#%92s reactivities to its present situation in my home, not with what happened in its past.  Far too many times people use these evils just to make themselves out to be better than others.  Criticizing JQP with snap judgments when JQP might have just moved on to another trainer is wrong.  Moving forward and improving a situation is what I do or seek.
 
I respect that there are a lot of variables that would affect timelines.  But why leave this out of the conversation with owners or give the owner a hard time when it is asked.  I also know that the more information or knowledge that is obtained, the timeline would get firmer.  So part of the conversation should be “If you see this in the next hour, or day, week, or month, then you should expect….”.  Is that so hard for an experienced professional. 

ORIGINAL: TinaK
Yes, people don't like to be tested. My take on this is "Too bad!" Don't take an obedience course. I'll offer another course for you called... something different.

Yeah, a lot of classes in my are are called "manners" classes rather than "obedience".

I actually really liked having the CGC test at the end of our class. It gave me something to work towards, with a deadline and clear criteria. I knew exactly what we'd be expected to do and right from the get-go I knew how long we'd have to learn it all. We had a practice test the week before the real one so we all knew what we'd have to polish up that week. The way that trainer worked it, if you passed the CGC test, you passed the class and got your CGC (Marlowe was the only dog in the class to do that), but if you didn't pass the CGC but did pretty well anyway, you passed the class and would be able to move on to the next class at that center if you wanted to.

Respectfully, why would it be assumed that is not happening?  Does in my situation all the time.

Respectfully, I concede that you are not the typical Dog Professional just as you say I am not the typical JQP.  My take is just that, experience-same as yours.

I concede that you are not the typical Dog Professional

 
I understand where mrv and PACLeader and other trainers responding here get their opinions on JQP.  Can you elaborate on where you obtained your opinion of "the typical Dog Professional"?

It is interesting that you would understand mrv#%92s and PACLeader#%92s being that there opinions are subjective and lack roof.  I do contact major institutions to verify if stats are kept and if the statements represents reality.  I recognize that both, mrv in his history post and PACLeader#%92s detail post here, extend themselves in coaching owners.  I even remember mrv creating a thread asking for ideas on how to make his courses more interesting.  He felt his course was getting stale.  I contributed to that thread.  Did you?  But the fact is they have no notion of why the client has broken contact.  Maybe JQP used their consumer power and went to someone else.  Both state that it is too hard to define a timeline for a dog showing improvement but it is easy to pass judgment on JQP that its obvious when time is not put in.  Maybe JQP#%92s experience is the same as the trainers.  Who is to blame, why blame? 
 
The biggest influence that shape my opinion is the posting of trainers and their constant bashing and using JQP as the cause of all dog ills.  If you are not a dog professional then you are JQP and I don#%92t like being blamed for something I did not contribute to.  They don#%92t realize how much influence they have to change things and the power to shape opinions to carry on a more positive message.  I can just picture one trainer#%92s class where she lectures, yells, shakes her figure, and talks down to students.  Same as the posting here.  I am sure all the successes are people that totally fall in line with the rigid teachings.   When I had just my dogs I used trainers but they were years apart.  I wanted to be treated a certain way, respectful so yes I switched a few times.  Now that I foster many dogs and each dog has a specific need, I have interviewed and visited a lot, maybe most positive-only behaviorist and trainers in my area and Chicago is big.  Oh yes there is arrogance and some have no idea that they are in the Service Industry nor what it means.  Most just did not listen to me, what I have accomplished with the dog or what I wanted to achieve.   Most made no accommodation on a schedule. 
 
Probably you do not think of yourself as JQP but you are (oops you may be a dog professional).  We are all only human and sometime we fail our dogs.  There are estimates that there are 45 to 65 million dogs in something like 30 million homes.  I guess a small portion are in a dysfunctional state.  But because of that small portion, the trainer white washes the rest as evil.  That is not right.  That needs to change.

Ok  two points of clarification:  MRV is female aka Maryanne  and by definition I am not a professional.  I do not get paid for the training services I provide through the all breed kennel club to which I belong.  I am an experienced dog owner who particiaptes in dog sport as a competitor.  []

Sorry mrv, you need to add some scent to your post.  Seriously I could have sworn you showed a picture of yourself at some dog event in the NDR.  Whenever I read your post, that picture pops in my head.   So if you are not a dog professional then you are JQP, what's in between.  Why are you bashing yourself?