Starting Leroi @ Puppy K next week

    • Gold Top Dog

    Starting Leroi @ Puppy K next week

    So I finally found a place that I can join immediately.  They'll accept Leroi at the next class on Monday, Dec 11.  He'll be 2 days shy of 12 wks old but they said it was all good.
    I'm going to Canadian Canine in Ottawa.  Not sure how many Canadians are on this site, much less are from Ottawa.
    They don't use treats to compel the dog to obey.  They use owner voice and body language as the dog's motivation so that my praise is the dog's reward for obeying my command.  Doesn't matter to me, though - I would've been fine with a treat-oriented class, but for some reason my BF is happy it isn't. 
    The dog is obviously on-leash at all times and in Puppy K they use a "flat" collar.  No idea what other version of collar there is, but the older dogs use it and the pups do not.  I guess if your puppy isn't lying down on command, you "assist" him by pulling down on the leash, etc. 
    Anyone have any opinions on this, or does this sound like your average Puppy K? 
    It's 6 wks of 1 hour sessions that focus on socialization, fun, training, distractions, and some basic agility. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    A flat collar is just your average nylon collar, as opposed to a halter or GL or prong, etc.
     
    I checked out their website. I guess you'll get mixed reviews on their decision not to use treats.... it leads me to believe that they do not follow principles that emphasize +R. What that means to you depends who you ask. I'd rather go somewhere that emphasized +R rather than the use of force (using the leash to pull them into position is not painful or horrible, but it is force). Is it bad? I don't know. Not the way I trained, not the way I want to train, but some people think it's just fine.
     
    They say this on their website:
     
    "Motivation: Treats are not used as reward for obedience. Remember we are training your dog to be obedient not training him to do a few tricks. This is done by teaching you to be the leader of your pack and to motivate your dog with lots of praise for a job well done and lots of fun and play. You will then have become your dog's reward. "
     
    [size=3]It bothers me that they think treats are only useful for teaching "tricks". It seems they are not up to date on all the studies and success with positive reinforcement training. However, using play and fun as a reward is just fine too. [/size]
    [size=3][/size] 
    [size=3]I just hope it's not an old-fashioned place that leash pops and stuff everytime the dog doesn't get the command. [/size]

    • Gold Top Dog
    I am wary of any puppy K that doesn't use treats... not because you absolutely need them in PR training, but because any trainer who dismisses treats out of hand as bribing or tricks misunderstands PR and therefore probably isn't using that method. If I were you I'd stop in to check out a class before you commit... there's no way I'd take a puppy to a class that uses leash popping and/or "positioning" to train. Even if you wind up going that route with your dog (and I don't ;personally recommend it) - your puppy is way too young for that kind of handling.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: jones

    I am wary of any puppy K that doesn't use treats... not because you absolutely need them in PR training, but because any trainer who dismisses treats out of hand as bribing or tricks misunderstands PR and therefore probably isn't using that method. If I were you I'd stop in to check out a class before you commit... there's no way I'd take a puppy to a class that uses leash popping and/or "positioning" to train. Even if you wind up going that route with your dog (and I don't ;personally recommend it) - your puppy is way too young for that kind of handling.


    Ditto.  If you go to www.clickertraining.com or www.apdt.com, and hunt around, you may be able to find someone who will not use compulsion on your 12 week old puppy.  Also, it's counterintuitive, but this type of training often produces dogs who don't walk very nicely on lead. 
    To see a clicker trained dog in action, go to www.clickertrainusa.com.
    And, if you want to know more about clicker lessons (which can be modified to use your voice as a "marker" instead of the click), go to www.clickerlessons.com.
    Your BF is, unfortunately, laboring under the myth that food = bribing, which, in clicker training it certainly does not.  It is a reward, just as a toy, a pat, or your voice is a reward. 
    I would reconsider taking this class and find one more dog-friendly. JMHO
    • Gold Top Dog
    I have to admit I'm a little rubbed the wrong way by the quote from their website about not using treats. To me that signals that they subscribe to the idea (which I think is a pretty harmful myth) that dogs should inherently want to please humans, just because we're us and they're them.  Now I've met plenty of dogs that really love to please their humans, but what of dogs who don't? What's their problem? Are they defective? And what do you do with such dogs to teach them to behave? How do you make a dog who doesn't care about pleasing you do something that pleases you? If you don't use treats, you've got only a few things left on the table in that case: a special toy (in which case, how does that differ from a treat?), a special game (again, it's the same as a treat it's just an activity instead of a morsel) oooooor.....force. You can force the dog to behave. And where do you draw the line there? If your dog needs to be forced into a position and it doesn't maintain that position what do you do? More force? A smack? Yelling? If you take tangible rewards off the table, not a whole lot is left.
     
    Personally, I'd find another class. One that doesn't take such a snooty attitude towards a scientificly sound method of animal training.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'm not sold on this training facility either, but I do want to emphasize something very very important.  Sighthounds, and other hounds too, are stubborn but VERY sensitive.   Please observe a class or two without Leroi being there.  If you feel that the methods used are too harsh, do not attend this class. 

    Harsh training methods will cause your sighthound to shut down.  And sighthounds get bored much more quickly than other dogs.  Lessons should be no longer than 4 or 5 minutes, with play and treats being a reward-rather than vocal approval.  Whippets are a bit different than other sighthounds, but most sighthounds are independent and don't really see vocal approval as the best thing in the world, they'd rather you prove it by running 100 feet with them.    Heck they'd rather you run 10 feet with them than give them a "attaboy."

    So observe the class, and make your decision.  I'm sure we'll all chirp in when you tell us about your first class anyways!  [:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    That's the thing. 
    I wanted to be a spectator at a class first, but if I do that (and like what I see), then I'll only bring him to 1 class (Dec 18) before the 3wks of cancelled classes over the holidays.  I was eager to join this class because every other Puppy K doesn't start until half-way through January and by then he'll be 16+ wks old!! Isn't that a little old to be sending my dog to Puppy K?  Is he even a puppy by that point?  This particular place wouldn't allow a 16wk old dog to be in Puppy K.  It's specifically for younger dogs. 
    I mean, I guess I could scratch my obsession with Puppy K and just take him to Basic Obedience 101 in January, but then won't I have missed out on valuable weeks that I could've used to turn my whippet into an obedient doggie genius?! 
    I know a friend who used a certain school (treats and +R) to train her Berner, and she said they were absolutely fantastic, and I've seen the dog in action.  I was discouraged when I found out they didn't start until mid-January.  I guess I feel the pressure/rush is on to get him into obedience school.  Is this a legitimate concern or am I paranoid, as usual...
    • Gold Top Dog
    16 weeks is definitely still puppy and not too late to start puppy K or obedience class. In my opinion, puppy class for pups under 4 months is more about socializing than training anyway... you will just have to be conscientious about socializing your dog to other healthy, well-behaved dogs and puppies until he goes to class at 16 weeks. If I were you I'd definitely wait for the +R class. It's never too late to train a dog; I admire you for wanted to get a jump start but don't rush into anything either. [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Leroi

    That's the thing. 
    I wanted to be a spectator at a class first, but if I do that (and like what I see), then I'll only bring him to 1 class (Dec 18) before the 3wks of cancelled classes over the holidays.  I was eager to join this class because every other Puppy K doesn't start until half-way through January and by then he'll be 16+ wks old!! Isn't that a little old to be sending my dog to Puppy K?  Is he even a puppy by that point?  This particular place wouldn't allow a 16wk old dog to be in Puppy K.  It's specifically for younger dogs. 
    I mean, I guess I could scratch my obsession with Puppy K and just take him to Basic Obedience 101 in January, but then won't I have missed out on valuable weeks that I could've used to turn my whippet into an obedient doggie genius?! 
    I know a friend who used a certain school (treats and +R) to train her Berner, and she said they were absolutely fantastic, and I've seen the dog in action.  I was discouraged when I found out they didn't start until mid-January.  I guess I feel the pressure/rush is on to get him into obedience school.  Is this a legitimate concern or am I paranoid, as usual...


    Your dog is already past the socialization period, so if you have been doing that with him, meeting other dogs and people, then there's no rush.  He may have to enter a basic class that includes older pups and a few adult dogs, but the class material should be the same.  I would consider taking him to the more positive class, even though it doesn't start till Jan., rather than take him someplace where you will have to jerk his leash and not reward him for good behavior, except with your voice.  Given the choice, dogs work better for resources that they want.  And, it's much easier to train them that way, too.  Your friend got a good result because she was able to form a relationship with her dog based on trust, as well as having received good instruction in the mechanics of training each behavior.  Do yourself a favor and go to her teacher! 
    If you are interested in some lessons that use positive methods, that might give you a head start until class, go to www.clickerlessons.com.  If you don't want to use a clicker, just use your voice and say "yes" when instructed to click, and you'll do fine.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ok, due to overwhelming negative response, I've decided to cancel my evaluation with the trainer at Canadian Canine. 
    Well, it wasn't entirely because a bunch of strangers told me to, but more because he's already really well socialized with other dogs/people, so I might as well wait until I can take a Basic Obedience class in January at a school I know is really well reviewed.
    Thanks for helping a newbie guys! [:)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think you made the right decision!
     
    In the meantime, keep spending time with Leroi at parks, friend's houses, busy areas like outside grocery stores etc. Make all the experiences for him very positive, especially those involving meeting new people and dogs.