Dog Community

I don't get how dogs don't understand the word "no"

Posted : 10/5/2006 1:17:53 PM

OK so I hesitate to even start this thread because I know that it will probably start a bunch of conflicting views and that is absolutely not my intention….I actually tend to completely stay out of these training topics as I am always the “peacemaker” in the family and tend to steer clear of conflict.[:-] But. . . I do have to ask this question because I am very confused.

When folks are asking for advice on disciplining and training their dog I see over and over again “dogs don#%92t understand the word no”. This has been stated by many folks who I truly respect on this forum but I don#%92t understand how dogs don#%92t get “no”. My pups absolutely understand “no”.

If my dogs are showing an undesirable behavior I typically will “snap” my fingers and they absolutely understand that they need to knock it off. I don#%92t have to use it often but it gives the desired effect every single time. I also reward heavy for any desired behavior that I witness and I do follow some NILF philosophy.

On occasion though I use the word “no” and this gives the same desired effect as the “snap”. This is why I don#%92t understand why folks feel that a dog doesn#%92t understand what you are trying to communicate to them

I will give you an example of a situation where I might use “no” instead of a snap. My dogs aren#%92t barkers at all. . .but there is 1 dog that lives a couple of doors down that is off lead whenever he goes out to potty and he walks RIGHT up against my back door on his way to and from his condo. For some reason this dog pisses my pups off so badly!! JJ#%92s hair stands up on the back of his neck and he and Prudence bark like crazy. They absolutely know that they are NOT to bark at this dog and when I am in the room and they see the dog outside they often won#%92t even try it because I am right there.   If I am upstairs and they see the dog they will bark like crazy and of course from that far away they can#%92t hear me “snap” so I yell “no” from upstairs and they stop. They absolutely understand what I am wanting of them and it gives the same effect as my “snap”.

This is why I am confused. Is their something different about when I am using “no” versus when others are saying “no” that makes a difference in their understanding?

Again, I am not saying that anyone is wrong, I actually very much respect the folks that have posted that “no” doesn#%92t work, I just don#%92t understand it. Can someone please explain to me the logic that dogs don#%92t understand what “no” means.

Thanks you guys!   [

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Xeph

Posted : 10/5/2006 1:52:34 PM

Dogs don't inherently understand anything we tell them in the beginning. No means nothing to a new dog, just like sit means nothing. They know how, but in the beginning, the word has no real meaning.

When dog's initially respond to somebody saying "No!" it's usually because of the vocal inflection they have given the word. We tend to drop our voices and growl the word. The dog understands a growl is a warning, and he better stop what he's doing, but the word itself has no true meaning to the dog. Not until it's taught in a full capacity.

jjsmom06

Posted : 10/5/2006 3:43:51 PM

Dogs don't inherently understand anything we tell them in the beginning. No means nothing to a new dog, just like sit means nothing. They know how, but in the beginning, the word has no real meaning.

When dog's initially respond to somebody saying "No!" it's usually because of the vocal inflection they have given the word. We tend to drop our voices and growl the word. The dog understands a growl is a warning, and he better stop what he's doing, but the word itself has no true meaning to the dog. Not until it's taught in a full capacity.

I see. . . so if they hadn't ever really been exposed to the word (like a puppy perhaps), they haven't learned to associate a "meaning" to the word. However in the case of my pups, they do understand that the word means that they are doing a behavior that I deem as unaccepatable?? Is this right?

"No" was the only word my very first greyhound 10 years ago would respond to (she had been in a previous home for 4 years and had to be surrendered but had learned the word before we got her). This created problems for my second greyhound because he was aspook and anytime the word "no" was said in general conversation, he thought one of them was in trouble.[

] That is why we decided with this group that we would use a "noise or sound" with them instead of saying no. They rarely hear a "snap" in our home, only when it is directed at them.

Aina

Posted : 10/5/2006 3:57:04 PM

I think Xeph sumed it up well. You could say 'yes' with as much growliness and the dog would respond the same way. In the same way, you can say "You are the most stupid dog I have ever had and I hate you" in a high pitched nice tone and they will wag their tail and act like you just gave them the world.
I normally use 'no ma'am' for Maggie, because then she knows I am not talking to a sibling or friend.

jjsmom06

Posted : 10/5/2006 4:10:51 PM

you can say "You are the most stupid dog I have ever had and I hate you" in a high pitched nice tone and they will wag their tail and act like you just gave them the world.

[sm=rotfl.gif][sm=rotfl.gif] This is sooooo true!
You posting that remnded me that when my step kids were teenagers and they would take our dogs on a walk, as they were getting the leashes out and the dogs would get so excited and they would say in a high pitched voice "doggies wanna go to the vet and get ________??"(they would fill in the blank with: get your teeth cleaned, get an enema, get a shot, get put down. . .) and the dogs would continue going crazy with happiness! [

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spiritdogs

Posted : 10/5/2006 4:30:11 PM

Actually, I could teach a dog to "come" when I say the word "no".

If you assign a meaning, other than the "growlie tone", "no" can mean anything you want it to.

In class, when beginners swear to me that their dog understands "down", I use the hand signal and say "down". The dog goes down. Then, I don't use a hand signal, and I say "down". Nine times out of ten, the dog just sits there with a quizzical look on his face. Then, just to prove the point further, I say "submarine" and use the hand signal - the dog goes down. So, my students then realize that to have the dog understand verbal commands is a longer process than they thought. They really do start off just looking at our body language.
One woman was astonished to find that her dog would go "down" when she moved her head. Once I made her stand still and only speak the command, the dog had no idea what to do.
"No" is just a noise that interrupts them, if given in a certain tone. Most of what we say to uneducated dogs is just background noise until they understand, through training, what we mean.

Xeph

Posted : 10/5/2006 4:58:17 PM

Anne, you would LOVE the instructor I work with at Kennel Club. Her name is Ellen, and she is just the most fun loving woman xD

"Dogs have no idea what sit means. Quite frankly, I could tell Putter to Rutabaga, and he'll Rutabaga until I tell him to do otherwise. Heck, if I really wanted to, I could say "beanie baby" and that could be his command for sit."

I love Ellen. LOL

jjsmom06

Posted : 10/5/2006 5:03:34 PM

Anne- thanks so much for this info. It makes more sense to me now. [

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By the way. . I saw your post about training a dog to "leave it".....very easy to understand the way you do it. I think I will try it! [

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agilebasenji

Posted : 10/5/2006 5:21:46 PM

I think it is better to tell the dogs to do something instead of saying "No". So if the dog is standing at the window, jumping up and down and barking, tell him to "go lay down". If you were to say "No", are you saying No to the barking, the standing at the window or the jumping up and down? How does the dog know which one?

jjsmom06

Posted : 10/5/2006 5:28:31 PM

I think it is better to tell the dogs to do something instead of saying "No". So if the dog is standing at the window, jumping up and down and barking, tell him to "go lay down". If you were to say "No", are you saying No to the barking, the standing at the window or the jumping up and down? How does the dog know which one?

Good point! I use to tell my last female greyhound "go lay down" because she felt she needed to be the center of attention all the time. This worked well.

I think in the case of my two now, they don't jump, so they are just standing at the window and they know that is fine to do, but they understand the barking is not fine. But you bring up a good point and maybe I will start trying the "go lay down".
Thanks for the suggestion! [

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spiritdogs

Posted : 10/5/2006 7:32:24 PM

ORIGINAL: agilebasenji

I think it is better to tell the dogs to do something instead of saying "No". So if the dog is standing at the window, jumping up and down and barking, tell him to "go lay down". If you were to say "No", are you saying No to the barking, the standing at the window or the jumping up and down? How does the dog know which one?

Excellent point. I think it's wonderful strategy to tell the dog to "go lay down", or some other behavior, but just be sure that whatever you tell him to do, it is something he clearly understands how to do! That's where we often get in trouble.

jetty

Posted : 10/5/2006 9:52:37 PM

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs Nine times out of ten, the dog just sits there with a quizzical look on his face.

I never thought I would fall into that group but it became glaringly obvious that I am just the same when we started agility! When I'd set up a jump and tunnel side by side and said one word without any physical cue, Dodger would just do his favorite out of the two. Its taken a lot of time to perfect the names of a few obstacles and is something we are still working at!

I remember a test in one of Stanley Coren's books - he says to say "Refrigerator" in a happy, sing-songy voice (the way you'd say your dog's name) and score the dog accordingly on how he acts (whether he ignores you or comes to you).... Is he really listening or just responding to the pitch/tone of your voice!?[

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probe1957

Posted : 10/6/2006 10:23:10 AM

Dogs most certainly can be trained to understand the word "no." Well actually, my current trainer teaches "no" while my previous trainer used "ehhhhhh." Most of the time I say "ehhhhh." Old habits are hard to break, much to the chagrin of my current trainer. LOL.

You will hear people here say that saying "no" doesn't tell the dog what you want him to do. I agree with that, but it certainly tells him what you DON'T want him to do, which is what he is currently doing.

NO - don't chase the cat.
NO - don't chew the rug.
NO - don't move from your stay.

mudpuppy

Posted : 10/9/2006 2:34:39 PM

Well, you CAN teach the dog what NO means-- I teach my dogs that "uh oh" means they didn't respond correctly and need to try again with some other behavior. This is a very precise meaning: try a different behavior than the one you just did.

But most people are so vague about what "no" means in regard to their dog, and use it so often, and with such poor timing, that there is no way the dog can ever figure out what it means. You so often see people chanting or yelling NO at the dog over and over again. The dog just tunes them out. What exactly do you mean when you say NO to your dog anyway? think about it. If you can't precisely define a meaning, there is no way your dog can.

corvus

Posted : 10/11/2006 12:40:01 AM

I think you're right, mudpuppy. There's nothing wrong with using no as long as you don't use it so much it has no meaning anymore. I use no with Penny as a no reward marker. I also use ah-ah and just a harsh, growly ah! She knows all of them mean stop whatever you're doing. She also knows that stop means freeze. I have no problem with using multiple words. She knows them all because that's how I talk to her because I'm human. Consistency is really important with a dog you're still laying the foundations down with, but once you've got one word down, why not add others? Especially if you have trouble sticking to the one.

Indicentally, isn't it interesting that 'no' sounds very similar in many languages? It's a short, abrupt word beginning with 'n'.